Typophile - Serifs. What's the point? - Comments

“wouldn’t fixation-scope

enne_son — Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:43:21 -0800

“wouldn’t fixation-scope parafoveal issues be of a different
rank than broader, non-content-relevant peripheral issues?”

I’d see fixation-scope, and the parafoveal issues you like to foreground when you talk about reading as bouma-based, as relevant to the molecular level.

I’ve posted a PDF to the

George Horton — Thu, 9 Feb 2006 04:55:38 -0800

I’ve posted a PDF to the Serif Crit forum.

“Rank”: wouldn’t

hrant — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 20:05:48 -0800

“Rank”: wouldn’t fixation-scope parafoveal issues be of a different
rank than broader, non-content-relevant peripheral issues?

> “generic 65”

Sounds interesting!
Got a visual?

hhp

Re: divergence, and your

George Horton — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:51:06 -0800

Re: divergence, and your fondness for Fleischman 65, I produced a “generic 65” by modifying the most vanilla Dutch baroque style face I could find - Bitstream Aldine 721, actually a narrowing of Plantin but so far from Granjon that its ultimate origin is irrelevant - to reduce the height of bowls, verticalise o, Jannonise the head serifs and Fournish the feet. I think it works: I can try to do it again rather better if you’d like to see the results.

I would think the level of

enne_son — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:40:44 -0800

I would think the level of divergence that threatens effective bouma formation would threaten efficient saccading as well. We could call the ’rank’ of these types of issues the molecular ’rank’. Disturbances that threaten functioning at the molecular rank would also create problems of colour at the text-block rank.

If the color divergence

hrant — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:55:44 -0800

If the color divergence necessary to inhibit bouma formation is
greater than the divergence necessary to cause a saccade (to fixate
on the color spike) from a fixation other than the “correct” (previous)
one then it’s moot because reading is disrupted so globally that optimal
boumas never have a chance anyway.

hhp

“The question is: Is

enne_son — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:02:12 -0800

“The question is: Is [...]”

Could you elaborate: I don’t understand the question.

> too much hurts readability

hrant — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:17:23 -0800

> too much hurts readability by inhibiting bouma formation

Interesting.
The question is: Is this within errant-saccade tolerances?
Because if not, it’s largely moot.

> not ... effectively integrated into Hrant’s scheme.

Admitted.

hhp

Hrant: “divergence

enne_son — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:05:05 -0800

Hrant: “divergence provides the information”

Yes! but if my fourier transforms say what I think they do, too much hurts readability by inhibiting bouma formation, i.e., has an adverse affect on what I called in my Typo#13 contribution a wholistic (rather than letter slot-processing skewed) response bias.

George: “reduced clarity of vision in the parafovea isn’t really gaussian”

Yes! brilliantly put! the increasingly well-understood effects of lateral interference on the processing routines applying to processing in parafoveal vision of letter-clusteral material are not, to my mind at least, effectively integrated into Hrant’s scheme.

Thanks. Color spikes: I

hrant — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:52:58 -0800

Thanks.

Color spikes: I think if they’re mild enough (and yes, spreading
the divergence around is crucial*) so as not to trigger errant
saccades (saccades from anything except the previous fixation)
then they can only help.

* Could one say that the mathematical derivative
of the color map should be totally even? Hmmm...

hhp

a lot of people think MINE

George Horton — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:35:04 -0800

a lot of people think MINE was the rubbish part!
It’s a superb piece, and I’d love to see whether divergence in incunable-style micro-properties can work as well as the macro-divergence of your example lowercase (on the grounds that the reduced clarity of vision in the parafovea isn’t really gaussian - there’s no certainty that different architectural forms are more clearly perceived than things like different lengths of serif or different relationships between internal and external axes). As for colour, I do find consistently divergent colour very off-putting in, say, the light s of the original California Old Style or the light h of digital Poliphilus, but perhaps if divergent colour were spread more evenly across the alphabet it wouldn’t matter so much.

There certainly are limits.

hrant — Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:27:34 -0800

There certainly are limits. But the main
thing is to see that divergence provides
the information, not convergence.

> within the constraints of even of color and good rhythm

Even color: Here again I have to point out that even color,
perhaps only because of the wording, tends to convey the need
for total uniformity, which is something we can hopefully agree
is a Bad Thing. So when you say “within the constraints”, I hope
it’s clear that even color is just another factor that needs to be
balanced, not some sort of absolute requirement.

Rhythm: I’ll kindly let that slide this time. :-)

—

Graphic Design & Reading: Well, I was, and still am, actually
flattered to have been asked by Gunnar to contribute. I’m also
grateful in a practical sense, because for some reason it seems
I only write articles when somebody asks me to, and then I have
something useful to brandish. The pseudo-philosophy you complain
about was the hallmark of the 90s... and GD&R came out towards
the end of that era. Actually, I didn’t know what else would end
up in that book; but even if I did I would have gone ahead with it:
it was a great opportunity to reach a lot of people; in fact a quarter-
length version of that essay (with a really good Spanish translation
by Jorge de Buen) was subsequenly published in tipoGrafica. BTW, a
lot of people think MINE was the rubbish part! :-)

hhp

>divergence (of width in

William Berkson — Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:37:59 -0800

>divergence (of width in this case) within a limited spectrum that’s most likely to be easily picked up as pattern?

Well put, George. I’ve been arguing with Hrant that divergence has to be within the constraints of even of color and good rhythm, but you put the case much better here.

Hi Hrant, don’t you think

George Horton — Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:13:28 -0800

Hi Hrant, don’t you think that it’s divergence (of width in this case) within a limited spectrum that’s most likely to be easily processed as pattern? Such that widening i and l with serifs brings outliers into a width-range over which differences are more readily picked up?

James also mentions above the Swanson book, which I’ve read; apart from Rolf Rehe’s and your essays (and perhaps one or two others I’ve forgotten) it’s the most astonishing rubbish, semi-literate garbling of continental philosophy. What were you thinking in associating yourself with these dismal frauds?

> the letters become more

hrant — Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:29:50 -0800

> the letters become more equal in width with serif’s.

Except you want divergence of widths
for optimal readability, not convergence. :-/

On the other hand, your point about serifs making
some characters wider and thus giving them more
of a chance to stand out is a very good one.

> It really settles the argument as to the importance of
> the ratio of interletter space to counter space.

It’s just a damn shame that in the
end that importance is not properly
addressed via chirography...

hhp

Serifs. What's the point?

Randy — Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:31:09 -0800

Hello all.

As I learn and read more about type design, one area of continued interest for me is the lowly/mighty serif. It’s always facinating to me to see what aspect of their function authors highlight.

For example: Counterpunch by Fred Smeijers
On pages 30-32 (and elsewhere) he talks about how serifs promote good word image by defining the space between letters and the counters within letters. This helps designers as we try to balance the internal and external space. Smeijers suspects it helps readers too ...

I’d like to do a comprehensive read on the topic. Can you recommend credible books or other resources that give insight here?

Thanks,
Randy