Typophile - Legal issues with using fonts? - Comments

Arbo: That means PP Zero may

James Arboghast — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:50:03 -0700

Arbo: That means PP Zero may not be redistributed on a commercial basis, ie: distributed “for profit” by charging money for it.

But the font may certainly be used for commercial purposes, ie: for making a profit out of—whatever you can think of as long as the profit-making is legal. PP Zero may also be used for personal purposes, ie: non-profit activities.

These license conditions do not apply to the commercial version of the font, Pyke’s Peak, which has strict license conditions on distribution, ie: no, it cannot be freely distributed or used on webpages with the CSS @font-face rule as PP Zero can be.

j a m e s

@JosafeenGrey: ...so james,

James Arboghast — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:37:39 -0700

@JosafeenGrey: ...so james, when you say commercial use (as in the paid licensing), do you mean redistribution?

For Pyke’s Peak Zero and its Zero Cost EULA, users may distribute (redistribute) the font file on an unlimited number of web servers as a download for redistribution provided they don’t charge money for it or claim it as their own work. PP Zero may also be “embedded” on webpages using the CSS @font-face property which requires the font to be installed on a web server as a live webpage resource, in unlimited fashion.

That means PP Zero may not be redistributed on a commercial basis, ie: distributed “for profit” by charging money for it.

I’m trying to get a grip on what exactly commercial use is...

I define “commercial use” as; Use of the font for the purpose of promoting a commercial product, goods sold, or a service that makes its proprietor a monetary profit. That definition is not in my Zero Cost EULA, but the term “commercial use” is adequately defined by common commercial law in most countries. My commercial rights and “right to profit from my invention” are guaranteed by common commercial law, just as they are for any other merchant or entrepreneur.

j a m e s

The best way to discuss a

Miss Tiffany — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:29:19 -0700

The best way to discuss a specific part of a EULA is to have a specific EULA in mind. Do you have a specific foundry you are curious about?

P22, for instance, does a very good job in explaining theirEULA.

This is the best thread i

JosafeenGrey — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:51:15 -0700

This is the best thread i have found on the topic.
so james, when you say commercial use (as in the paid licensing), do you mean redistribution? I’m trying to get a grip on what exactly commercial use is, and frankly most eulas are very very muddy (or they seem so to me). AND, the times that i have called to find out specifically if my use was covered, i got a runaround (ambiguous answers and no returned phonecalls or emails ) go figure.
Anyway, i have no interest in creating derivitives or redistribution, my use is solely as a designer. I understand that all tou’s/eula’s are going to have different intents, but i thought i’d pick your brain for some insight. :-)
TIA

Thomas: Now, most licensing

James Arboghast — Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:20:02 -0700

Thomas: Now, most licensing of fonts seems to allow you to use the outlines for things like logos. But that doesn’t mean there’s no copyright inherent in the outlines.

That is correct. And thanks for making the reality of copyright and intellectual property so plain and clear.

My latest creation, Pyke’s Peak, comes in two versions, the commercially licensed Pyke’s Peak, and the “zero cost” version, Pyke’s Peak Zero. PP Zero has an internal EULA text built into the OTF font file. The font file’s header copyright notice clearly states in summary:

“Copyright (c) 2007 - 2008 Typeface designed by James Arboghast. Published by Sentinel Type. All rights reserved worldwide. This is the “zero cost” version of Pyke’s Peak, meaning you may posess and use the digital font file for zero cash outlay, but the commercial rights to the font data & intellectual property contained in it are not free in any way. You may distribute this font without permission on internet font archive sites and other media provided you do not charge money for it or try to pass it off as your own work. Please read the End User License Agreement embedded in this font file for details.”

PP Zero is a significant release, as the zero cost license allows personal as well as commercial use and “embedding” using the CSS @font-face property. The integral EULA text:

“S E N T I N E L T Y P E End User License Agreement

Your use of this digital typeface is conditional upon on your acceptance, without modification, of the terms and conditions expressed herein. Your use of the typeface is deemed to indicate your acceptance of all such terms and conditions. If you do not agree to the terms, promptly destroy all materials.

Sentinel Type is:
James Arboghast
7a Belford Road
Kew East 3102, Victoria
AUSTRALIA
Email: arboghast@hotmail.com

1. USE
(i) Sentinel Type grants to you only, the User, the non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use and display the font for personal and commercial purposes. The font may be used on an unlimited number of CPUs and other computers and connected to any number of printers or other image producing devices at your site.

(ii) You may send a copy of the font with your documents to a commercial printer or other service bureau to enable editing or printing of a document, provided such party has informed you that it acknowledges this license agreement.

(iii) You may embed fonts within documents such as .DOC and .PDF for the viewing and printing of those documents. You also may use the font on webpages posted on the World Wide Web by linking to a copy of the font file on a web server by using the @font-face CSS property.

(iv) You may distribute this font without permission provided the .ZIP package with EULA text, documentation and accompanying materials remains intact. You may upload the font file to bulletin boards, archive sites and include it on CD ROM collections, but you may not modify or rename it, claim it as your own work or charge money for it. The font data and artwork design are protected by this End User License Agreement and by U.S and international copyright laws.

(v) You agree to use this font for lawful purposes only, and not to modify, adapt, translate, publish, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, create derivative works of, licence or sell the font without Sentinel Type’s prior written consent.

2. COPYRIGHT
(i) Rights: this font file and the artwork, typeface design and data are protected by this agreement and by international copyright law. These rights are valid and protected in all media and technologies existing now or later developed. Except as explicitly provided otherwise, this agreement, applicable copyright and other laws regulate your use of the font. At a minimum Sentinel Type asserts its right of ownership of the intellectual property contained in the typeface and accompanying materials.

(iii) Copying and Backups: You may make as many copies of the font file for backup purposes as you see fit, provided the copyright and trademark notices and accompanying materials are reproduced in their entirety in the backup copy.

(iv) Infringement: You may be held legally responsible for any infringement of Sentinel Type’s intellectual property rights caused or encouraged by your failure to abide by the terms of this agreement.

3. DISCLAIMER and WARRANTY
(i) Sentinel Type warrants this font to be free from reasonable defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of 90 (ninety) days from the date of acquisition.

(ii) Each user must evaluate and bear the risk inherent in any reliance on the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of the font. The font and its content are provided “as is” and “as available” without warranty of any kind, either express or implied, including warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular pupose, unless such warranties are legally incapable of exclusion. In no event shall Sentinel Type be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, incidential, special or consequential damages arising out of the use of or inability to use this font, even if Sentinel Type has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In states that do not allow limitation of liability for incidental damages ST’s liability shall be limited to the extent permitted by law.

Should you have any questions concerning this End User License Agreement, or if you desire to contact ST for any reason, please contact Sentinel Type in writing.”

As far as creating derivative outlines and using them in a logo or a webpage, the EULA specifically prohibits that:

“(v) You agree to use this font for lawful purposes only, and not to modify, adapt, translate, publish, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, create derivative works of, licence or sell the font without Sentinel Type’s prior written consent.”

And as the EULA text states, the user’s use of the font is conditional upon their “acceptance, without modification, of the terms and conditions expressed herein.”

End of story.

But PP Zero remedies that with its generous licensing terms for CSS webpage embedding and no logo fee, so users don’t need to create derrivative works from it. They can simply use the font instead and be happy :^)

j a m e s

Oh. For internal use only. I

Miss Tiffany — Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:51:44 -0700

Oh. For internal use only. I was thinking you’d be selling it again.

Well the problem really is then does the EULA allow modifications? And, do you care?

miss tiffany: i would do it

joslog — Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:53:28 -0700

miss tiffany: i would do it because i want a custom version with thinner serifs, for example, and couldn’t find anything like this already in existence

@joslog — Why would you do

Miss Tiffany — Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:38 -0700

@joslog — Why would you do that to begin with?

“could i be sued” You

aluminum — Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:34:26 -0700

“could i be sued”

You can always be sued.

Just to clarify what seems

nmerriam — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:13:03 -0700

Just to clarify what seems to be a contradiction between what I’ve said and what Thomas is talking about — while the shapes of the letters are not protected, the specific selection of points and curves that the creator uses to accomplish that shape is protected by copyright. Anyone who works with bezier curves knows that you can create the same shape a thousand different ways, and doing a literal point-for-point, curve-for-curve duplication or derivation of someone else’s choices isn’t allowed (much like the phone book case, where the arrangement itself is a creative work).

@ nmerriam, Oh, don’t get

Pablo Defendini — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:10 -0700

@ nmerriam,

Oh, don’t get me wrong: I agree wholeheartedly—a lot of work goes into a good, quality professional font, and it would be bad craftsmanship to use anything other than that. I was just postulating the situation as a hypothetical, concentrating on the legal issues involved, to the exclusion of all else.

I’m not a lawyer, and this

Thomas Phinney — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:42:02 -0700

I’m not a lawyer, and this is a legal question for which you really ought to consult a lawyer.

That being said.... At least in the USA, the outlines from the font software ARE protected by copyright. At least, that’s how I as a non-lawyer read Judge Whyte’s summary judgment ruling in the Adobe vs SSI case.

“Adobe claims there is some creativity involved in the manipulation and editing of the on-curve and off-curve reference points. Defendants claim there is no protectable creativity contributed by the editor in determining the desired character outline for each font.”
...
“The evidence presented shows that there is some creativity in designing the font software programs. While the glyph dictates to a certain extent what points the editor must choose, it does not dictate every point that must be chosen. Adobe has shown that font editors make creative choices as to what points to select based on the image in front of them on the computer screen. The code is determined directly from the selection of the points. Thus, any copying of the points is copying of literal expression, that is, in essence, copying of the computer code itself.”

Full decision here: http://directory.serifmagazine.com/Ethics_and_Law/Copyright/judgement.ph...

Now, most licensing of fonts seems to allow you to use the outlines for things like logos. But that doesn’t mean there’s no copyright inherent in the outlines.

Cheers,

Pabla — your situation is

nmerriam — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:47:40 -0700

Pabla — your situation is certainly possible (again, in terms of copyright — whether or not the license prohibits it and is binding in your jurisdiction is a totally separate issue). But like I said, the quality of such a project is generally not going to match up with expectations. You’d certainly get a much better looking site by using well-designed, professionally optimized fonts that are allowed to be downloaded, or are widely distributed, than trying to hack out look-alikes of some offbeat face. It’s much simpler to use existing image replacement techniques for headings and other small blocks where a really unique face needs to be used.

This is fascinating, and a

Pablo Defendini — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:04:48 -0700

This is fascinating, and a very much needed topic for discussion.

In the spirit of continuing the discussion, I’d like to postulate a hypothetical: As we’ve seen here a few days ago, web browsers (particularly WebKit/Safari) are starting to correctly parse CSS3, including the ’embedded fonts’ feature. This conflicts sharply with most foundry’s EULAs regarding uage of their font files. From what I’m reading here, would it not be an acceptable (in a practical sense-ethics aside) end run around this issue to take the font you want to use, create outlines in Illustrator, create your own font file from these outlines (hopefully with attention paid to kerning tables, hinting, etc., of course!), and use that as the embedded font in your website?

While it would seem to me that the foundry’s EULAs are in sore need of rewording in order to reflect current and future usage practices, this would seem, at face value, as an alternative to exposing yourself to litigation, while still enjoying the new typographical features available on modern browsers.

Any thoughts?

Legal issues with using fonts?

lourettab — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:18:00 -0700

I’m trying to understand the legal issues in using fonts in logo designs and in other ways. I tried searching the forums (and Google) but can’t seem to find anything definitive about this.

I read that “fonts cannot be copyrighted” (meaning the letterforms themselves) but that the “programs” (the actual font files) used to control them can. I also read that if you convert a font to outlines, there are no copyright issues at all and the outlines can be used freely since the actual letterforms can’t be copyrighted. This sounds a bit bizarre to me. Is it true?

If this is the case, does that mean the paradigm is that you (as a designer) purchase a font so that you can legally use it to create a document (a newsletter for example), then render the letterforms (by printing the document, converting the letters to outlines, rasterizing the document, etc.) so the document doesn’t contain the actual font “program” itself so you can freely distribute the document without paying the font’s owner any licensing fees?

From what I’ve read of the court rulings on this issue, it seems the intention was to avoid a situation where a fontmaker could require that a reader purchase a font themselves and own a license to it before they can legally obtain a copy of a document set in it, since that would mean for example that anyone who wanted to read a magazine would have to buy licenses to all the fonts used in it first. That makes sense - if a font owner could do that, it would be like Berol “copyrighting” their colored pencils and saying that anyone who wanted to buy a drawing made with them would have to buy a license to the pencils themselves first. So the letterforms in a font would be like the pigmented “lead” and the font file would be like the wood tube that it comes in. (Hopefully that makes sense.)

So, is this actually true? If it is, does it extend to using fonts in logo designs as well? And if the situation doesn’t work this way, how does it work? There seems to be a lot of confusion on this based on the message threads I’ve been reading.

Typophile - Legal issues with using fonts? - Comments

Arbo: That means PP Zero may

@JosafeenGrey: ...so james,

The best way to discuss a

This is the best thread i

Thomas: Now, most licensing

Oh. For internal use only. I

miss tiffany: i would do it

@joslog — Why would you do

“could i be sued” You

similar question, which may

Just to clarify what seems

@ nmerriam, Oh, don’t get

I’m not a lawyer, and this

Pabla — your situation is

This is fascinating, and a

Legal issues with using fonts?