Typophile - Degree classification...does it REALLY matter? - Comments

true. - www.nunocoelho.com

Freeza — Sun, 18 May 2008 04:34:35 -0700

true.

www.nunocoelho.com

IT is interesting to see how

terminaldesign — Sat, 10 May 2008 05:12:27 -0700

IT is interesting to see how this thread has morphed.

There are many kinds of

Eben Sorkin — Sat, 10 May 2008 00:21:53 -0700

There are many kinds of success. Louis Kahn is one. But think of the standard american paperclip. That is one seriously successful design! If by success you mean ubiquity and such deep penetration into the culture that the design itself ceases to even invite question - almost like air. Agreeing to a kill fee and walking can be a huge success too. I am of course not advocating for any of the above per se. Just saying that inevitably you place your own goal posts and in so doing keep your own score.

James, To say a design was

pattyfab — Fri, 9 May 2008 17:48:58 -0700

James,

To say a design was not successful is not the same thing as saying it was not good. Clients reject excellent designs all the time often for very misguided reasons. But as Ken points out we are in the business of servicing said clients and if the client doesn’t get what they want we have not done our job. Sometimes the best thing to do is agree on a kill fee and walk away.

If the client went to a

James Puckett — Fri, 9 May 2008 15:54:57 -0700

If the client went to a different designer for his next project, or didn’t pay for all the time spent on revisions, the design was not successful

By that measure Louis Kahn is among the worst architects in history.

Every version was a

KenBessie — Fri, 9 May 2008 15:23:03 -0700

Every version was a successful design, but the client could not be satisfied because the client was stupid and refused to be satisfied.

If the client went to a different designer for his next project, or didn’t pay for all the time spent on revisions, the design was not successful. This is a business. We provide a service for money. Ideally, we also like what we do.

…if your client is not

James Puckett — Fri, 9 May 2008 14:18:16 -0700

…if your client is not ultimately satisfied with the work, then your design was not successful, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Rubbish. A design can be quite successful and never satisfy the client, because clients may simply be stupid and desire random changes that undermine the requirements they set forth in the first place. Sometimes the designer has failed to communicate why the design works in a way the client can understand, but sometimes the client is just plain stupid.

I once worked for a client who requested an advertisement on a very short timeline, designed to fit into an existing campaign. Several successful ads were produced, the client chose one…and requested a minor aesthetic change. The change was made, and then the client requested another, and another and so on. Fourteen color shifts, shadow angles, weight changes, etc. later the window of opportunity was past and the ad died. Every version was a successful design, but the client could not be satisfied because the client was stupid and refused to be satisfied.

And about recognizing that

Miss Tiffany — Fri, 9 May 2008 12:55:47 -0700

And about recognizing that if your client is not ultimately satisfied with the work, then your design was not successful, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Very true.

It isn’t about becoming

pattyfab — Fri, 9 May 2008 11:29:03 -0700

It isn’t about becoming tough. It is about understanding. Understanding the clients needs in terms of how you can solve them with what you have to offer.

And about recognizing that if your client is not ultimately satisfied with the work, then your design was not successful, regardless of whether or not you agree with him. It can be extremely frustrating when a client asks you to do something you don’t want to (I’m dealing with this right now on a book cover) but you need to pick your battles and if you alienate the client you lose the client. Some are worth losing, but in this economy... that’s not a luxury I want to take. It can also be hard to avoid “design fatigue” which is that point in the design process where you are willing to do almost whatever they ask in order to get the job DONE and your invoice paid. It happens, and the more experience you have (and the more extensive portfolio) the easier it is to accept that some jobs are just not going to end up in your portfolio.

I was a student that had to

Miss Tiffany — Fri, 9 May 2008 09:38:51 -0700

I was a student that had to be reduced to tears before I really grasped what it was I was attempting to do. Yeah, I think the teacher was a little over the top, but his kind of teaching put me on the right track. When I became a teacher I consciously avoided doing what he did, but never forgot the lesson he taught me. In school the teacher was the client, so I always worked to please the teacher. I was lucky. I had teachers that I could trust in that I knew if they approved of my work it meant it was good. In life I work to please the client. Underlying all of this “pleasing of others” is me making sure I think I’m still doing good work.

It isn’t about becoming tough. It is about understanding. Understanding the clients needs in terms of how you can solve them with what you have to offer.

And yet... people keep

pattyfab — Fri, 9 May 2008 09:33:27 -0700

And yet... people keep hiring Louise Fili.

“a tough cookie could turn

dezcom — Fri, 9 May 2008 09:22:14 -0700

“a tough cookie could turn so hard, so nasty...it might start hurting others.”

But tough nasty cookies don’t get return work. The trick is, the client gets to be nasty but the designer has to remain calm and positive. This is the thick skin part and why good people skills are important for success. Designers provide a service to a client. Clients can choose to use you for that service or hire someone else. Very few very sought after designers have the luxury of choosing clients. Those lucky few did not find themselves in that position by being nasty to clients. Designers have to learn how to be skillful communicators and collaborators. Would you hire someone who was nasty to you? There is a big difference between a designer who has done their homework and speaks effectively and can get their point across without negative behavior and an egocentric bully who is so demanding that nobody will work with them.

ChrisL

In school the crit is always

pattyfab — Fri, 9 May 2008 08:44:31 -0700

In school the crit is always framed as a learning experience. Constructive criticism is what I think they call it. Most client critiques lack this compassionate edge.

Oh I had plenty of non-compassionate art teachers. Students reduced to tears in crits. However, that is good preparation for the working world.

the truth of the matter is that most schools teach fantasy-land work so if there is a problem at all it is schools not putting the students under real-world production problem solving.

This statement is the source of my bias against design school. Plus I found design school grads often had a sense of entitlement - walk right in and expect to be handed plum design work rather than do whatever you’re handed, keep your eyes open, have a good attitude and earn the right to do the good projects.

I see being a tough cookie

missgiggles — Fri, 9 May 2008 08:33:58 -0700

I see being a tough cookie helps. Sometimes, a tough cookie could turn so hard, so nasty...it might start hurting others. SIlly cookie.

“Most client critiques

dezcom — Fri, 9 May 2008 08:19:33 -0700

“Most client critiques lack this compassionate edge.”

Unquestionably true! :-)

ChrisL

Degree classification...does it REALLY matter?

missgiggles — Sat, 3 May 2008 05:12:06 -0700

Does it matter what degree classification you have? I mean a 1st or 2:1 or do you think too many people think too much about it, as they never get asked what classification they get in employment. Do they? At the 4 designers conference in London, they mentioned the fact that no one asks about it. Is this a good attitude to give out to students or erm...bad? WOuld just liek your views on it. Thanks.
PS isn’t it the attitude, the personality, the way one thinks and the passion for design that REALLY matters or all of the above and more so? Please enlighten me.

PPS Would you rather be daring when it comes to design and fail or would you be safe and get a good grade?