Typophile - Regarding the use of the ampersand - Comments

I feel these rules were set

calvin_grandesign — Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:42:44 -0700

I feel these rules were set in place for a reason, if not then why are they their. I live in smallish city where labor work is king, and I see so many grammatical errors in advertising and basic written communications - its like I am living in a city of preschoolers. I think this is due in part the importance education played within the lives of these people and also in part to the lack of focus people like designers and writers place on the end results of not educating people etc... The syntax for ampersand may not be as important as some grammar rules, but if we as designers do not know or follow the rules and demonstrate or educate those who are unaware, we will only perpetuate the dumb asses who somehow think they’re being creative by spelling words the way they want or breaking grammar rules.. if this keeps up where will the simple rules go that define the English language? At some point my job as a graphic designer - communicating messages will become even more difficult in having to deal with the dumb-arse’s who insists on his/her dumb-arse English skills. Damn it now I’m angry for no reason! Designers and writers are in a position to educate the dumb-arses and I try to do my best here... hopefully you do too! : ) peace

Here’s a discussion on

rosendorf — Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:01:35 -0800

Here’s a discussion on Blogdorf about the subject:
http://rosendorf.us/blogdorf/archive/2005/12/15/1257.aspx

~
Theodore Rosendorf
http://rosendorf.us

kaisa — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:08:43 -0700

I want to be bloody excellent! Whether I get there or not may be another matter...
By the way, another link to ampersands with some lovely thoughts: http://www.designobserver.com/archives/000112.html
I have Bringhurst's "Elements"; what other books of his should I be reading?

Giampa — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:36:15 -0700

Hint,

Learn about spacing and typographical history. Robert Bringhurst's books should be studied along with Geoffrey Dowding's book on spacing. There is more to spacing than

kaisa — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:52:56 -0700

Oi! ...now I've just found this: http://www.adobe.co.uk/type/topics/theampersand.html
...where it says that use of the ampersand varies from language to language, and it's used to replace "and" in English and French, but the Germans are more rigid about its use.

Chris Rugen — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:20:09 -0700

I wouldn't have guessed that the ampersand had common use in running English typeset text. I use the ampersand for anything I want to join into a unit, a sort of verbal/visual ligature between words. It also makes more compact headlines, making for a quicker 'hit'. Also, this technique has, in my opinion, been co-opted by companies and commerce.

Thus, I would write:
"Bed & Breakfast"
"Bartles & James"
"Barnes & Noble"
"it's raining cats and dogs"
"I use both ampersands and words"

I think David Foster Wallace actually uses ampersands in some sentences to specifically imbue something with a sponsored, branded feel.

From a practical perspective, I would never be able to convince a typical client that an ampersand is acceptable, and I don't think I could provide a convincing argument to reverse their opinion. It may not affect the texture of the page, but an unexplained ampersand in modern text will most likely jar the reader. My concerns with the ampersand are less typographic and more editorial/reader oriented.

dan_reynolds — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 03:02:16 -0700

Many OpenType fonts include both full-size and small cap ampersands. That is just delightful!

kaisa — Tue, 12 Oct 2004 02:08:21 -0700

Mmm... and I've just found an example in Richard Hendel's "On Book Design", p.47, an example where "the small cap ampersand has been employed on an ad hoc basis to resolve remaining word space problems."

kaisa — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:20:46 -0700

Gerald,

Now you've done it. You won't hear the last from me!

Giampa — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:12:59 -0700

Hrant,

Do you like poetry, Gerald? Vanilla, chocolate or horsecrap?

Improper potty training, geezads! Put a diaper on it.

Giampa — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:49:02 -0700

Kaisa,

Gerald's work inspires me. As I've said before, I'm not a typographer by any means; but when I grow up I want to be able to create work a whisper as good as Gerald's.

I would be honoured if I inspired you to do great work in the future. If I can help just ask.

hrant — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:38:36 -0700

That would be so poetic. Do you like poetry, Gerald? Vanilla, chocolate or horsecrap?

hhp

Giampa — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:34:28 -0700

Hrant,

If aliens saw your stuff they'd think it's an abandoned planet.

If they saw you they would think you were one of them. You are such a child Hrant, someday I will take you out for an ice cream cone

hrant — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:29:43 -0700

Gerald, stop harping on. Show us what you have created lately. Anything to indicate that humanity exists outside moldy museums? If aliens saw your stuff they'd think it's an abandoned planet.

hhp

Giampa — Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:17:11 -0700

Now maybe Paul (Andrew) could show us some of his work?

Regarding the use of the ampersand

kaisa — Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:31:51 -0700

Hello everyone,

I thought I'd give myself a good grounding the classics, so I'm reading up on Tschichold's work and Geoffrey Dowding's "Finer Points". I was wondering: does anyone here use the ampersand in body text to improve spacing and lines, and if so, when, where and why?

Many thanks!