Peter, a couple of things before looking at your pdf. First if your going to use Small caps, use small caps don't fake it. The weight difference between the S and the TAMPS is noticeable. Letter spacing ATTORNEYS

Daniel, great insights. I knew this would be the right place to seek advice.

OK, I took your advice and here are a couple revisions.

The reason I didn

Watch the &. It's getting too close to the 2nd 'Stamps'. Also, I'd track the 2nd line just a bit, since the size, weight and caps make it seem cramped (to me). Also, it'll reinject the nice visual contrast from the first set. (in this one it's too high in the first and not high enough in the second)

To be honest, I prefer the regular weight, mainly because the ampersand just seems to play better with the 'Stamps's. But it also seems more austere to me.

I like the rule, but it's really just a judgement call.

OK, Chris, take a look at these. I switched back to the regular weight and set the kerning to auto for these and I think it helped a little. (To be honest, I don

Peter loose the dashes from ATTORNEYS

Much better. I prefer the top one now, as well. Tap the 'S' on each just a hair closer to the 'T', or loosen the space in the 'TAM' just a tad to compensate (this may be the best way). The rule when kerning is to find the most difficult spacing pair and match the rest to that. This is a minor thing, but will get exaggerated on signage.

The rule you're using is a bit heavy (1pt, right?) Maybe try a .5pt rule. But it may just be too much. See what happens. I agree with Daniel on font in the all caps version, too. The 'S' and 'T' are odd, which is why I prefer the top one now. The 'T' seems to stand too tall with its vertical serifs.

Another suggestion, which may or may not pan out: try using the small caps for the 'attorneys at law' with no full caps. Right now, I'm guessing that you're using the full caps version of the regular weight, and the forms are getting very thin. This isn't necessarily bad, but you might be able to get a sturdier logo with the SC and still preserve hierarchical contrast (you should track it slightly to compensate for the additional color from the heavier strokes). But, it could end up being too similar and look bad, or lose the fine, austere feeling.

By the way, any thoughts on colors? Or is this a B&W job?

If I may: imho the face chosen looks like belonging to a firm from the times of Billy the Kid. And although oldfashioned type can implay longevity and trustworthyness, I'm afraid this one is beyond that point and plain stale. Moreover the caps are almost twice the height of the small caps, which is visually disturbing to me. I think the "ATTORNEYS etc" has become too small in relation to the name and thus too light in color. In the all casp version the ampersand seems a little too light, in the small caps version the name looks a bit 'fat', unelegant, unclassical. I hope you understand this is all meant to get you ahead. Hopefully you can out it to good use...

Thanks guys, your suggestions are great. I

Peter, maybe it's just my european taste. You could have a look at Emigr

OK, guys, here

I'm partial to The Caslon Pro Small Caps ATTORNEYS

"Find out what college the principal partner went to it might help."

Daniel: That's good advice, I never would have thought of that.

I like the Caslon, I don't see a problem with it. My favorite design of yours so far is the second one in your last post with pictures (Peter Gurry, Post Number: 5). But I think that the second line needs a bit more letter spacing. You could also try other Caslons, if you have any.

Diederik, American design is much more "traditional" that contemporary European typography. I once did a logo for a DC firm, and really, really tried to get them to sign off on Mrs. Eaves or Matrix Script Inline. I will never try that again.

The dashes in Attorneys-at-Law do not bother me. In fact, I think that they might "belong" to real legalese. My father is a lawyer, and his business card (not designed by me) has the title written out "ATTORNEY-AT-LAW"

I admit that Daniel's color suggestion is spot on. I never would have thought of that.

Dan: I

I think the client graduated from the University of Dayton, so here

Why do you have to hyphenate 'attorneys-at-law'??

I'm not sure that I do, but that is the way it's done in the client's print ad. But, then again, it's not hyphenated in their letterhead. I'll have to check with them. Do you not like the hyphens, Kyle?

No, I don't. It seems really quite distracting to tell you the truth. It throws off the weight balance as well. I might also consider a little bit heavier weight for the attorney line. possibly just the SC version of that face scaled up a little would do the trick. If you do the grey for the bottom, it would make sense to make it a touch heavier. This will help it from being eaten up by the big red above. I'm not saying you want an equal weight distribution between the two elements, more of a 70/30 ratio. right nw I think you are at more of an 80/20.

Just my thoughts.

Kyle, I think you're on to something. How's this.

Much better. Have you given consideration to setting the bottom line in a sans face? there still seems to be a little bit of competition between the two. A sans might clear that up, I'm not sure. Something simple, a grotesque face, I would suggest. Possibly even a trade gothic? Try that one for size. I feel something extended, with a wide footprint.

Like this?





I'm not a big fan of these myself. They add way too much modernity to the logo.

Possibly -- worth investigating, though.

You're right, and this might be the way to go. In fact, I'm starting to like it with the bottom line in sans. It creates a nice contrast between the two lines.

Try trade gothic extended LH.

Sorry, I don't have that font.

Peter,
You've come a long way. I like what you did with the sans. Maybe look at the spacing of the sans and at the distance between the two lines. To me doesn't yet quite feel like a 'unit'. Good luck with the presentation.

I like the sans as well it separates who they are from what they are even better. Please convince them the dashes are not needed.

Thanks guys. I'll try not to let you down.

Diederik: Do you think the spacing on the sans "Attorneys at Law" should be increased or reduced?

Increased, if anything.

I like this one a lot. What do you guys think, is this the one?

Similar to trade gothic extended is Copperplate Gothic and Sackers Gothic. This has been used for a century for business cards etc., so it will have the old-fashioned look.

Not a fan of a condensed/compressed face for the sans. if anything, I see extended, just seems to be a classical way of doing it.

Hildebrant.

Peter,
The two lines look more together now. I favoured the wider sans and I'd increase the spacing somewhat. The Copperplate suggestion points in that direction too. To my (european) liking copperplate will geet a bit too "dusty". I think you're on the right track, keep on going.

Try something extended, not condensed for "Attorneys at Law". If you don't have TradeGothic extended, try Univers, Helvetica, Engravers Gothic or even Gotham. The condensed version does not look ok.

I agree; something extended and tracked. The condensed is at odds with the proportions of the Caslon. Also, don't go any heavier than the roman weight.

It's looking a lot better, Peter.

Thanks guys. This has been such a good learning experience for me and the logo's really starting to come together nicely. I'll see if I have the fonts you've mentioned and test them and then post the best ones. If anyone's interested, I've begun working on the design for the client's website (which is what I was originally commissioned to do). It's an early comp, but I thought you might like to see it.
Here's the link: http://www.gurrydesign.com/portfolio/stamps/

Peter, I'm not a fan of any website where I have to scroll. Could you look into making the content within a percentage of the viewers screen.

I knew I should have explained that. Right now, the website is just a big jpeg image because it's still in Photoshop. When it's all finished, the long header you see at the top will be a background image so it won't scroll like that. The reason I made the header so long is for people with higher resolutions. Sorry for the confusion.

Guys, I didn't have any of the serif fonts you mentioned. So what's the concensus on using Franklin Gothic Medium?

Peter,
getting better all the time! I'd suggest though that you look at the spaces between both 'stamps' and the ampersand. I also think the 'attorneys' look a bit too bulgy; a slightly smaller pointsize and a bit more spacing could doo some good.

How's this:

what do you think yourself?
(that's what my teachers used to ask) 8~)
Take your time for the last bit of nudging, and look hard: I'm afraid the image is screwing up the spacing somewhat, but from what I see I'd have a special look at "S t a"; the t seems too much to the left.

Good question. I think it looks pretty good myself. I think there's a bit too much space between "t" and "a" but also between "m" and "p". Or maybe it's that there's not enough space between the "a" and "m". I'll keep tweaking.

Peter, the easy way to adjust the spacing is pick the biggest problem area, fix/establish it, then adjust the other characters to reflect that spacing. Otherwise you will keep tightening and loosening forever.

While you are tweaking I would look at the AT in ATTORNEYS and AT; AW in LAW.

Ok guys, I've been tweaking. Here's a big version and a small version. I think this one's going to have to be the final version. Any last thoughts?

-Opinion on the website mockup-

I think the top banner image is maybe a little large and overwhelming, it looks a little disconnected with the body width of the page.

You can try to slice off both ends of the banner and keep it same width as your body width.


Another idea is to place the logo on top most. On white space rather than fight with a background image. In this case a slogan (if there will be one) can be placed as part of the banner.

Just my 2 cents

For the website buttons, go with what ever sans serif you end up choosing for the logo. The serif you have on the jpeg will be to hard to read online.

I was reading this page for inpiration las night, as I have to develop a logo for a law firm aswell, and today I saw a logo for a real estate agent with the same layout. ie - Big modern font for the main name and san serif for the sub name (sorry I am a student and dont know the terms). I just thought you might like to know, I found it interesting.

Cheers

Glad we could help. ;)