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skatter's picture

what font is this? thanx

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defiantone's picture

don't suppose you have any more characters to look at?

skatter's picture

DPape: Thank you so much. Greetz from Germany

akira1975's picture

Autumn Leaves made a lot of knock-offs.

hrant's picture

Akira, do you think we should not ID fonts by Autumn Leaves?

hhp

akira1975's picture

We shouldn’t ID fonts by Autumn Leaves, if they are knock-offs. They made many knock-offs. For example, they stole Zapfino and Petras Script.

BTW, AL Sandra is very close to Satisfaction.

hrant's picture

Dick, do you agree with Akira? If not, what's your rationale?

hhp

DPape's picture

You might want to ask Nick Cook he has apparently licensed some of his to them.

hrant's picture

So you feel AL Sandra is OK because you believe Andrew Leman -the designer of Satisfaction- authorized it?

And do you believe that Linotype and Elsner & Flake have also given permission to Autumn Leaves to distribute versions of their fonts, for free?

BTW is there anywhere one can read about Nick Cook's deal with Autumn Leaves?

hhp

Nick Cooke's picture

What's this DPape? I'll look into it...

It's the first I've heard of it Hrant.

Nick Cooke's picture

I can't find anything, any pointers?

DPape's picture

Big apologies, should have been Nick Curtis...

Some fonts with "NF" in font name have this message:

"Copyright (c) 2002 Nick Curtis. All Rights Reserved. Distributed under non-exclusive license to Autumn Leaves Scrapbooking. Unauthorized duplication or redistribution is expressly prohibited."

hrant's picture

Nick Curtis almost gives his fonts away these days (see his Typophile post of last Fall). That's not true of Linotype and E&F for example.

So do you think all (or even most) of the Autumn Leaves fonts are authorized by the original designers? Maybe it doesn't matter?

hhp

DPape's picture

Looking at AL Sandra and Satisfaction it would appear they are too similar to be "inspired by" . Looking at the two samples of UC , the letters are all slightly different but they seem to be 95% the same, to pick a number.

Some of the punctuation, not shown, seems to be copied without change.

Satisfaction:


AL Sandra:

DPape's picture

The Difference...
AL-Sandra:

Satisfaction:

hrant's picture

So what kind of conclusion would you arrive at, concerning the wisdom of mentioning AL Sandra here?

hhp

DPape's picture

Clearly the answer to the posed question is AL Sandra. The morality is also an easy call after it has been identified thanks to Akira1975.

That's the forever dilemma isn't it?

It's how do you identify/prove stolen fonts? Then how do you keep or get stolen fonts out of people's hands? Font Creators depend a whole lot on the morality of Font Users.

Unfortunately Hrant, simply "taking back" the answer is too easy and too late. Nothing has been put in place for tomorrow.

See you then.

DPape's picture

Hrant -- what drove you to take a shot at Nick Curtis? Wasn't relevant to anything...

hrant's picture

DPape on 25 Feb 2013 — 10:27pm:

Autumn Leaves/AL Sandra
http://www.fonts101.com/fonts/view/Brandname/19083/AL_Sandra

DPape on 26 Feb 2013 — 7:36am:

Clearly the answer to the posed question is AL Sandra. The morality is also an easy call after it has been identified thanks to Akira1975.

That's the forever dilemma isn't it?

It's how do you identify/prove stolen fonts? Then how do you keep or get stolen fonts out of people's hands? Font Creators depend a whole lot on the morality of Font Users.

Unfortunately Hrant, simply "taking back" the answer is too easy and too late. Nothing has been put in place for tomorrow.

See you then.

Do you agree that the person giving an answer is not responsible for the question, but only the answer? Are you sure Akira is agreeing with your morality simply by confirming the ID (which he actually never did)? Could you explain your interpretation of Akira's second post in particular?

How to identify plagiarism is a good question, and it might take a team of talents to do so. Do you think we have such a team here? :-) And I certainly agree that people depend on other people's morality. Isn't that a rule of society as a whole, and Typophile in particular? And no matter what a society is doing, isn't somebody's own behavior his own responsibility?

For myself, when I take back an answer it's usually not easy, and I think it's never too late to make a difference (especially considering these threads can be referred to). The stage for tomorrow is set today.

BTW, I wasn't taking a shot at Nick Curtis - in fact we're sort of friends. I was simply making an observation, and he would probably confirm it. And don't you think it's relevant that different people elect to work with outfits like Autumn Leaves differently, based on their pattern of behavior?

hhp

DPape's picture

Akira (very presumtuous for me to speak what's in his mind) is indicating displeasure with Autumn Leaves, not as an answer but as a moral issue.

I don't take his answer as a condemnation of me, but of AL! (I protect my ego at all times.) He guided me to the truth!!

There aren't enough lawyers at Typophile to identify plagiarism, or it would have been done many years ago.

Your behavior is your responsibility: let's talk drive-bys...

You knew something negative about Nick Curtis and made sure we all were aware of it. Made you feel good huh!

Nick Curtis is a far better example of a successful font designer than any of us. He has created thousands of fonts. He is the epitome of the designer you say you are trying to protect here. At first need, down he goes...

Sucha sorta friend you are.

hrant's picture

DPape on 26 Feb 2013 — 9:28am:

Akira (very presumtuous for me to speak what's in his mind) is indicating displeasure with Autumn Leaves, not as an answer but as a moral issue.

I don't take his answer as a condemnation of me, but of AL! (I protect my ego at all times.) He guided me to the truth!!

There aren't enough lawyers at Typophile to identify plagiarism, or it would have been done many years ago.

Your behavior is your responsibility: let's talk drive-bys...

You knew something negative about Nick Curtis and made sure we all were aware of it. Made you feel good huh!

Nick Curtis is a far better example of a successful font designer than any of us. He has created thousands of fonts. He is the epitome of the designer you say you are trying to protect here. At first need, down he goes...

Sucha sorta friend you are.

Previously Akira wrote:

We shouldn’t ID fonts by Autumn Leaves, if they are knock-offs. They made many knock-offs. For example, they stole Zapfino and Petras Script.

BTW, AL Sandra is very close to Satisfaction.

DPape then wrote:

Looking at AL Sandra and Satisfaction it would appear they are too similar to be "inspired by" . Looking at the two samples of UC , the letters are all slightly different but they seem to be 95% the same, to pick a number.

Some of the punctuation, not shown, seems to be copied without change.

Am I wrong that you now believe AL Sandra to be unethically made? If that's true, can you explain why it's too late to click the edit button?

Do you really think we need lawyers to identify plagiarism? And if I were a lawyer, would you edit your references to AL Sandy?

As for Nick: I made an observation that helps get a handle on this particular case. BTW are you sure Nick prefers you to me? But anyway how does that affect how you or I should behave?

And please desist from personal attacks on my character, especially since I'm not treating you that way.

hhp

DPape's picture

Shooting at Nick Curtis' recent postings has no bearing on this particular case. Not sure how: "Nick Curtis almost gives his fonts away these days (see his Typophile post of last Fall)" "helps get a handle".

He has been a very successful designer over years.

Nick Curtis apparently had a business/professional relationship which could give important character witness about Autumn Leaves.

You need lawyers to enforce morality: lawsuits, compensation, and prison time all help, but against the wrong doers, not the font id sleuths.

I don't talk about my sorta friends behind or in front of their backs.

hrant's picture

DPape on 26 Feb 2013 — 10:21am:

Shooting at Nick Curtis' recent postings has no bearing on this particular case. Not sure how: "Nick Curtis almost gives his fonts away these days (see his Typophile post of last Fall)" "helps get a handle".

He has been a very successful designer over years.

Nick Curtis apparently had a business/professional relationship which could give important character witness about Autumn Leaves.

You need lawyers to enforce morality: lawsuits, compensation, and prison time all help, but against the wrong doers, not the font id sleuths.

I don't talk about my sorta friends behind or in front of their backs.

Don't you think it's relevant to point out the difference between somebody who charges little for his fonts -and has often given them away- versus outfits like Linotype and E&F? And will you be addressing how you think Autumn Leaves is handling the designs from the latter two foundries? No pressure though, it's entirely up to you.

I agree with you that you need lawyers to enforce morality (assuming you even believe that Law is always moral...) but do you think an individual needs lawyers to hit the edit button once he realizes he made a mistake? Is it immoral -or is it simply humbling- to remove a reference to a font you come to believe is immoral? And do you think Typophile needs to be an immoral place because there are immoral people elsewhere? I'm confident that you don't think so.

If you get around to answering my previous questions, I feel that would be morally helpful. Just my personal opinion.

hhp

DPape's picture

(Your responses are wordy and include a lot of repetitive quotes.)

You seem to say: Nick Curtis charges less than Linotype and E&F therefore is less worthy or less moral. You can make a case that the two big foundries are less moral because of their prices.

I have not admitted to a mistake - I have only agreed with the likely mistake of Autumn Leaves.

Hrant, will you swear to the plagiarism of AL in AL Sandra?

(I still don't talk about my friends behind their backs.)

Wind down, wind down. Move on, move on.

Hrant you can have the last posting...

hrant's picture

DPape on 26 Feb 2013 — 11:45am:

(Your responses are wordy and include a lot of repetitive quotes.)

You seem to say: Nick Curtis charges less than Linotype and E&F therefore is less worthy or less moral. You can make a case that the two big foundries are less moral because of their prices.

I have not admitted to a mistake - I have only agreed with the likely mistake of Autumn Leaves.

Hrant, will you swear to the plagiarism of AL in AL Sandra?

(I still don't talk about my friends behind their backs.)

Wind down, wind down. Move on, move on.

Hrant you can have the last posting...

Do you think I should not repeat questions that I feel are important that I feel are being ignored?

If you insult me, do you think I should demand an apology?

I actually feel Nick is probably more worthy and moral than most any large font house. The relevant observation I was trying to make is that just because somebody gives away (or sells for a very modest fee) his rights to a font doesn't mean everybody else (specifically here Linotype and E&F) do that too. Do you agree?

Do you feel it's immoral to help somebody acquire a font that you feel is immoral? Giving the benefit of the doubt: Is there perhaps a greater good one can have in mind?

Do you think that if somebody accuses somebody of plagiarism but then realizes he was wrong, he should make amends?

And can you explain why you find Linotype's and E&F prices immoral? How much should a font cost? Does that depend on how good it is?

hhp

PabloImpallari's picture

I don't remember exactly where... but I'm pretty sure that I've seem (Satisfaction/AL Sandra) on old lettering books (Signpainters/Showcard books, similar to 101 Alphabets). So, it is probably that both are independent digitalizations from the same stuff. But I can't be sure...

hrant's picture

If a person really believes that, no problem. But do you think if a person believes something was plagiarized, he should not recommend it?

And what do you think of Akira's claim concerning Zapfino and Petras Script?

hhp

PabloImpallari's picture

> if a person believes something was plagiarized, he should not recommend it?
We all agree on that

> what do you think of Akira's claim concerning Zapfino and Petras Script?
Akira is right

hrant's picture

Cool.

Dick, do you think Pablo's right that we all agree on not referring to fonts we think are plagiarized?

hhp

Gräfenberg's picture

> if a person believes something was plagiarized, he should not recommend it?
We all agree on that

There are different standards on what actually amounts to plagiarism so no, we don’t all agree on that unfortunately.

cf. http://typophile.com/node/100536

hrant's picture

That is not meant collectively; it means that if a person for himself decides that something is plagiarized, should he personally recommend it or not? What do you think? And what do you think others here think?

hhp

Gräfenberg's picture

What I was getting at is the determination of plagiarism in the first place is so variable, but yes you’re right the quoted question wasn’t about that.

...if a person for himself decides that something is plagiarized, should he personally recommend it or not? What do you think?

For me, no without question.

I’d like to think that we all agree as Pablo says, but based on some of the arguments put forward here recently in debates on the issue I don’t believe that is actually the case.

hrant's picture

Sadly I agree with your last point - although to me frankly only one case stands out. Do you think this harms Typophile (and type in general)? And if so, should we try to do anything about it (if only on Typophile)?

hhp

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