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Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
Type foundry logo
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So, I've been designing typefaces for about 4 years now but soon I'm finally going to put some of my designs up for sale. I don't have the time to set up a proper foundry right now and may not wish to do so, but if I am to sell through MyFonts I would like to brand myself. Considering my last name is Silvertant I've decided on the name Silvertype. I would just like to know what you think of the logotype I designed for it.

Tim Aarts's picture
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Joined: 13 Jul 2011 - 4:57pm
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I like the design! Although it feels like it might be missing some sort of concept to make it more memorable.

I'm not a professional typographer but I feel the serifs on top 'typ' don't work nicely together. Especially since it's a logotype.

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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About the last thing Tim said: being a logotype, you could/should treat the letters as a single big ligature (i.e. adjusting the shapes to flow, not necessarily joining them).

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Thanks a lot for the feedback. I think that will be a big improvement.

As for the tittle, do you think a diamond shape would work better? Perhaps I should increase the size by 2% or so.

James Michaels's picture
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Joined: 6 Mar 2010 - 12:54am
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Have you tried the logo in a slightly lighter weight?

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Silvertype is a great name!

Unlike in a font, in a logo I would align things more; in particular the tops of "Sil" are too errant. Also, the "ty" almost-connection is uncomfortable. And yes, a more expressive tittle would be better. Lastly, consider making the beak of the "r" ascend.

Good luck!

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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I agree, I've been treating this too much like a typeface. I suppose I got inspired by some of the simpler logotypes around, like the one from Commercial type. Storm and Canada Type are too simple for my taste. I also considering a script logo like Kostic and Suomi, but I don't trust my skills regarding script and it doesn't seem to fit with my "rational" approach to type design.

I took your feedback into consideration but I'm running into problems. The diamond shape isn't working for me, though I'm not sure if that's my lack of skill or the style of the typeface to blame. The /r I'm unsure of. It compensates for the white space underneath the shoulder better, but I can't really get the shape right. Perhaps I should make it sharper anyway, together with the tail of /y. The /ty ligature I don't like, so I might just decrease the length of the bar in /t. I suppose I could find solutions to all these problems myself, but right now I just can't think of a way to solve the problem in /yp. The only solution I see is aligning the right side of the serif of /y with the left side of the stem of /p and just connect it straight down. It's not the most elegant solution though. I tried to connect the serifs horizontally in several ways but they all look equally horrible. The last solution I can think of is either raising the stem of /p or possibly make a swirl to connect it with /y, but I don't see that working well for this type. Extending the stem looks odd here. I would probably only dare to do that with a garalde.

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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As for the tittle, do you think a diamond shape would work better?

yes, a more expressive tittle would be better

Maybe you could use a shape which hints at a cube... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver#mediaviewer/File:Cubic-face-centered...

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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I tried that as well, though a mirror image of the cube presented there so it follows the diagonal at the top of /i.

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Actually, my design was still more like a diamond. I will try to reinforce the cube idea.

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Perhaps I've been over-thinking things. I tried many things for the /yp combination particularly, but in the end I merely blended the serifs horizontally and I think it works. At the size the logo would be presented online you wouldn't see the ugliness of the letter combination as I had it before anyway, but I felt it required a solution anyway. I'm also more or less happy with how the other characters turned out.

I tried the cube idea for the tittle; I tried several things but none of them worked. Right now I have a symmetrical diamond shape which I feel does work, though I actually might switch back to a semi-circle later. I just don't know. I'm working with two considerations regarding the shape of the tittle. The first is to emulate the ball terminal in /r, and the other is to make the tittle fit with the sharpness of the other letter forms. I'm combining sharp with rounded, so I don't know exactly which direction works best for certain details. The tail of /y could be a bit sharper as well, possibly.

As for /ty, the ligature is growing on me but I feel the bar of /t is too heavy for this letter combination. I already made it thinner and I feel it forces me to make the left side of /t thinner as well, which is not ideal as it should be a bit thicker than the top serifs of the other letter forms. Initially I tried to shorten the bar of /t but it looked ridiculous; in order to bring /y close enough I was forced to reduce the bar by way too much, so a ligature seems to be the only solution.

General criticism is still very welcome.

Tim Aarts's picture
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Joined: 13 Jul 2011 - 4:57pm
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Funny your comment about making the tittle a little bit bigger because I also instinctively thought about that when I first saw the design but I failed to mention it in the comment. I like your new squarisch tittle bye the way.

I don't like the connected il and the sharp drop on the r. I like the roundness of the original. And when I'm having a second look on your original design, maybe the ty don't bother me that much and it only the yp.

As you suggested yourself I would fiddle a bit with the stem of the p. The curl seems like a crazy idea.

Craig Eliason's picture
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004 - 1:44pm
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I feel there's some disconnect between the sharpness of the corner at the top right of /S/ and the "filed-down" look to right side of the head serifs of the other letters.

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Funny your comment about making the tittle a little bit bigger because I also instinctively thought about that when I first saw the design but I failed to mention it in the comment.

I often observe mistakes when I'm uploading pictures here rather than when I'm working on it. It's like I can suddenly take a step back and see my work a bit more objectively, though I still definitely require more sets of eyes to work out all the kinks, usually.

I don't like the connected il and the sharp drop on the r.

I don't like the connected /il either, but it seems necessary to bring the letters closer together. What can I do? The only solution I can think of is shortening the serifs. Perhaps that's what's required.

As for /r, the previous version is rather ugly, but I'm trying to find ways to fill more white space in that area without compromising the shape of the ball terminal. The ball terminal of the initial /r is too small I think. I feel the latest /r is close, but I will make the ball terminal more rounded. I have a slight bend on the top of the terminal to emulate the diamond shape of the tittle a bit, but I don't think it's working.

As you suggested yourself I would fiddle a bit with the stem of the p. The curl seems like a crazy idea.

I did fiddle with it and I'm satisfied with the /yp part. Is it still obtrusive to you then? Also, you mean crazy idea in a bad way, right?

I feel there's some disconnect between the sharpness of the corner at the top right of /S/ and the "filed-down" look to right side of the head serifs of the other letters.

What would you suggest? Just sharpening it? I'm a bit afraid of making it visually too sharp. I do want a bit of a contrast between sharp and rounded.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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It's like I can suddenly take a step back and see my work a bit more objectively

In fact, if you can afford the delay, do the most helpful trick in this regard: put it away for a month.

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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I do have some time and I'm not rushing to get it finished. Meanwhile I will collect some more feedback. I just joined TypeDrawers so I'm going to test it out there as well.

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Hrant, I didn't put my logo away for a full month but I did work on it sporadically. I could upload a PDF of the whole process if anyone is interested, but first I want to show you my result. I will still take criticism though.

The symbol is derived from one of the alchemy symbols for silver.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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I think it's pretty nice. Just move the "i" slightly to the left.

As for the symbol for silver: it's not very organic, but that might provide for a nice contrast. Also it might serve well as a user-interface motif for your website; I'm thinking things like the three small circles spinning around the big one to make selections, or zooming in to each small circle which in turns spawns three new small ones, etc. BTW are there other symbols for silver, that might be more interesting? I have a couple of symbol dictionaries, but they're deep in the gara... I mean, the archives. :-)

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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I think it's pretty nice. Just move the "i" slightly to the left.

For why? I think it's spaced evenly. Moving /i to the left would make the gap between i_l too big I think. I would move S closer to /i, but then the Sil part is kerned tighter than the other letters. I had to go for looser spacing because of the gaps in /typ.

BTW are there other symbols for silver, that might be more interesting?

Did you see the link I provided? Here's the link without formatting: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2512f83e7980.png

Those are the 7 symbols I could have chosen from. I first tried to moon but couldn't make it work. The second symbol looks too much like a lady's butt with her legs moved up to me and the eye and triangles I feel are too esoteric to use as a main symbol. However, I might use the other symbols as well at some point.

Initially I had the idea of using the periodic table but considering the symbol for silver is Ag from argentum, that didn't work for a logo. I'm still going to use the periodic table for branding though. Perhaps use that concept to show off OT features in PDF specimen, or something like that. Either way, I have some things to work with when I expand the branding. For now it's just a logo so I can submit it to MyFonts.

For the circles symbol what I had in mind was to have the smaller circles go outward when you hover over the logo or just have the circles rotate indefinitely. I haven't yet figured out what to do with it but it's a concern for later.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Of those, what about the one just to the left? Arcs of circles continuously opening and revealing mirrored arc of circles might make for a great site navigation device.

BTW using the periodic table is something I once considered myself, playing on the "micro" prefix and my view that a font is like a little machine. But it's a bit over-done.

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Which one do you mean? The "eye"?

But it's a bit over-done.

Is it? Who's doing it?

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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Is it? Who's doing it?

Look for “periodic table of type”.*

As for the symbol, I like the one you choose, being the most “scientific-looking”, but also think that the left-topmost could be more “typographic” (and would make a nice † ;-)

* And Adobe with the branding of the Creative Suite. But I think the periodic table is nowadays such a strong and basic design concept** that it could be exploited in many different ways.

** Pantone swatches are an example.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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And it's not just over-used in type, or even design. I think ever since Breaking Bad it's been everywhere. Dunno, could be an advantage too I guess.

BTW, I liked the top-left symbol most at first, but then worried it's too va... feminine. :-)

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Look for “periodic table of type”.*

Ahh I've seen that actually. Strange that I didn't think of that. But to be honest it doesn't impress me much. I think considering my name it's still clever to do something with the elements. It could serve as inspiration to display either features of a font or display a collection of typefaces. I'm not too happy with the idea that the period table has been used in design before, but then I did already know it's not a unique concept, but it is one that seems to fit very well.

As for the symbol, I like the one you choose, being the most “scientific-looking”, but also think that the left-topmost could be more “typographic” (and would make a nice † ;-)

Thanks for the suggestion. You might be right, stylistically/aesthetically. Although, there are two things that bother me about that symbol:

BTW, I liked the top-left symbol most at first, but then worried it's too va... feminine.

Exactly. The first thing that crossed my mind were ovaries. It's not necessarily bad but it's the wrong kind of association when you need to relate it to silver. It also reminds me of spirituality. I'm not a spiritual person, so that doesn't sit well with me.

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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The first thing that crossed my mind were ovaries. […] It also reminds me of spirituality.

I can see the visual references, but it could also be expected that an alchemical symbol bears some spirituality connection.

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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The first thing that crossed my mind were ovaries. […] It also reminds me of spirituality.

I can see the visual references, but it could also be expected that an alchemical symbol bears some spirituality connection.

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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Ohh certainly. Actually I'm fascinated by the occult, but more so for its richness of concepts. I often look into the Book of Revelations, Qabalah or Jewish mysticism for inspiration when I do illustration work for specific clients. However, I'm too rational to indulge into rituals or naive thinking about spirituality so I rather not communicate that with my business. I like the current symbol not necessarily for its aesthetic forms (they're circles after all) but because to me it looks like there is some association with physics. I initially didn't have that in mind when designing the logo but it fits very well with my interests.

One objection I do have to the symbol is that it's too simple and therefor not recognizable enough. At the other hand, a simple symbol may be exactly what I need but it will greatly depend on the layout and concept for presenting the typefaces whether it will work. Klim and Storm have the most boring type foundry logos I've seen but I feel particularly in Klim's case it works really well. How do you go about this? Do you feel you need a prolific symbol?

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Klim's logo used to be pretty cool. The current one on Twitter is indeed too plain. And on the site I can't even see it...

Mine is an է (a very... spiritual letter for Armenians :-) with an infinite bar.

BTW another plus of the one to the left of your current choice is that it looks like an eye. And type is looked at.

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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I didn't see the one on Twitter. I meant the one on the website. You can't really call it a logo, but I think it works well as they give the typefaces all the focus.

Don't you think with the eye it's going to look too esoteric? On the other hand, given the fact I'm mostly interested in designing book and display typefaces the esoteric association might not be bad.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Do you mean esoteric as in people won't know it means silver? But they don't know any of those symbols anyway.

Your current choice is more visually distinctive on its own. The eye one is more conceptual and suitable for interface/animation use. If you don't see yourself leveraging the latter attributes on your site, stick with your current choice.

hhp

Martin Silvertant's picture
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 - 11:51pm
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No, I mean esoteric in the sense it brings up associations of esoteric subject matter. I know the TEFF website is abstract but for some reason the colors and typefaces bring up similar associations for me. I immediately think of dusty old books, master craftsmanship and forbidden knowledge.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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FWIW I'm not getting that feeling at all from the "eye" one. But the TEFF logo I can't even find now... What's this new habit of not showing a logo on a foundry site?! Too hipster for me.

hhp

Riccardo Sartori's picture
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 - 4:20am
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I think a foundry should have a mark, or monogram, more than a logo in the modern sense...

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Whatever, a symbol.

hhp