Tahoma Look Alike

Primary tabs

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tom Quinn's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Dec 2016 - 9:47am
Tahoma Look Alike
0

I have a loan document that was created in November 1991 by an attorney using an early Apple or McIntosh computer, probably a Mac SE. The computer is long gone and my attorney passed away in 2006. I think he was using some sort of business form software created for Apple. The type face in question is identical to Tahoma but Tahoma was not introduced until 1994. I'm told that Tahoma is a knock off of several other fonts that were in use decades ago and may have been created by Susan Kare or Adrian Fruitiger. Can anyone confirm my suspicions or has anyone used that early business form software I am referring to? Your help is appreciated. Sincerely, Tom

Mark Simonson's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Dec 2001 - 11:00am
+2

Your sample is not much to go on. It would be helpful if you could post more example characters than this.

It does look like Tahoma, but I am not aware of any typefaces older than Tahoma that would be this close. Whoever told you Tahoma was a knockoff was wrong. Your sample does not match any Frutiger fonts that I know of, and Susan Kare only designed bitmapped fonts for Apple. Tahoma resembles older typefaces in only the most superficial sense.

In November 1991, TrueType fonts were very new. Among the initial set of TrueType fonts that Apple shipped, none looked much like Tahoma. (The fonts were Times, Helvetica, Courier, and TrueType versions of Kare's earlier bitmapped fonts Geneva, New York, Chicago, and Monaco.)

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
0

I guess it comes down to what "looking much like" looks like;)

Theunis de Jong's picture
Offline
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 - 5:06pm
0

David, what does that peculiar tail on the "Q" look like in Geneva?

Igor Freiberger's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 - 8:44pm
0

Not exactly Geneva:

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
0

Thanks Igor. I was busy. The point from me is not that these two faces, designed a decade apart for the same general purpose, don't look alike to us, but rather that they would be not be very distiguishable to most. So, someone who has become familiar with Tahoma, and has barely ever seen Geneva, might look at Geneva and think it Tacoma. That's all.

Igor Freiberger's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 - 8:44pm
0

I understand your point, they are very similar and hard to distinguish. Now I become curious which font was used in Tom's document — although one cannot expect very much from just four letters in low resolution.

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
+3

I'm pretty sure the story says the font is Geneva. But I'm also pretty sure the font being shown to us, (a scan of 300 dpi printer output?), is Tahoma, tracked -5.
And when a font id comes down to a deceased lawyer's word against a specimen, TGFI.

Mark Simonson's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Dec 2001 - 11:00am
0

Yeah, that seems the most likely explanation.

Jim Vanguard's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Apr 2017 - 10:45am
0

Tahoma is a clone of VBF-42, a proprietary typeface designed by Adria Frutiger in 1965. It was revised in 1978 and again in 1989 for use with Windows 3.0 and early Macintosh. VBF42 was the resident font in software sold by Vanguard Business Forms until the company was purchased in 1994.

Tom Quinn's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Dec 2016 - 9:47am
0

You may have solved the mystery. Please post a sample document containing VBF42 if possible. Thanks.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
0

Yes, let's see VBF[-]42.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
0

https://twitter.com/jenskutilek/status/848965423206944770

BTW "Vanguard Business Forms" yields no results in Google...

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
0

Jim Vanguard, are you in fact Ulrich Stiehl, the notorious berserker mud-slinger?

George Thomas's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2000 - 7:46pm
+1

Hrant, I think you got it right. Mafiabuster? Sure sounds like Ulrich; too coincidental.
If you are the person who moved the paragraph on Wikipedia, the following in the Type list should be removed also: "VBF42 (1965) Proprietary type face created for Vanguard Business Forms"

Tom Quinn's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Dec 2016 - 9:47am
0

I have great respect for your work and your opinions, but what do you have against Ulrich Stiehl? I've done extensive research into font forgeries and Mr. Stiehl seems to have is facts in order. Have you read his most recent update? Please be specific about any errors in his research. Thanks!

My website was launched in November 2004 starting with an introductory report about the "Funny Font Forging Industry" (see below). None of the notorious font forging companies ever dared to sue me, because I describe the facts. I analyzed more than 70,000 fonts, most of them forgeries, and documented them in innumerable PDF files comprising more than 5,000 pages covering numerous font forging companies. The design of my website is boring and my English is clumsy, but the facts described are pure dynamite. This website reveals that most font forgeries are not made by pupils or students, but by professional forgers in organized companies specialized in selling forgeries to dimwits and suckers in design studios and advertising agencies, who can be easily taken for a ride. See also the fifth-anniversary document Anniversary.pdf.
http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
0

It wasn't me, but I'll pass along your suggestion to the person I think it was.

Tom Quinn's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Dec 2016 - 9:47am
0

I studied Ulrich Stiehl's website and have found numerous examples of font forgeries by Matthew Carter and others. I also read his most recent post and would appreciate a valid argument as to why we should not respect and appreciate Mr. Stiel's extensive research into this very important subject. His latest post speaking volumes to his credibility. (see below or click on this link. http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/ )

My website was launched in November 2004 starting with an introductory report about the "Funny Font Forging Industry" (see below). None of the notorious font forging companies ever dared to sue me, because I describe the facts. I analyzed more than 70,000 fonts, most of them forgeries, and documented them in innumerable PDF files comprising more than 5,000 pages covering numerous font forging companies. The design of my website is boring and my English is clumsy, but the facts described are pure dynamite. This website reveals that most font forgeries are not made by pupils or students, but by professional forgers in organized companies specialized in selling forgeries to dimwits and suckers in design studios and advertising agencies, who can be easily taken for a ride. See also the fifth-anniversary document Anniversary.pdf.

Thomas Phinney's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Sep 2002 - 11:00am
+2

One of the biggest problems with Stiehl is that he uses a very pejorative word, “forgery,” in a completely inappropriate way. Part of the meaning of forgery is, yes, producing a copy of something. But the other part, what makes it “bad,” is passing it off as the original. A forgery is claimed to be the thing it is imitating. This does not, in general, happen with fonts. Everyone agrees that Dutch 801 is imitating Times (New) Roman; Bitstream never took Dutch 801 and labeled it as Times New Roman to sell it as the original. So “forgery” is a totally inappropriate word to use, in English.
It is as if somebody made by hand a copy of the Mona Lisa, clearly labeled it as a copy/imitation, and somebody else accused them of forgery just because they imitated it. Utter nonsense.

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
+1

"Tahoma is a clone of VBF-42, a proprietary typeface designed by Adria Frutiger ..."

Adria Frutiger, yes that's it —Adrian's unknown sister. Now it all makes sense. Long thought to have vanished with aliens during a canoeing encounter on the Loire, she was taken to the planet Comma Superiorè, raised by raster demons, sand drivers and pixel sprites before being returned to earth as Susan Kare, just in time to work on the Mac. A Frutiger, BTW is a kind of giant European house cat, originally bred in the Frü province of northern Italy. You can read all about it on the website I launched in 1873. Y'all must know it to be true because, in over 125 Saturnian years, no one's ever sued me. People only get sued if they lie, or no, if they don't get sued they must be telling the truth. Forgers, smugglers, the vipers Vanguard, Uli jungle fever! Batman help us all, or not, if you're too Busy watching reruns.

Andreas Stiftung's picture
Joined: 6 Apr 2017 - 12:10pm
+1

Almost all sans-serif types look the same, so why does it matter?

George Thomas's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2000 - 7:46pm
0

The reason it matters:

Jim Vanguard
Tahoma is a clone of VBF-42, a proprietary typeface designed by Adria Frutiger in 1965. It was revised in 1978 and again in 1989 for use with Windows 3.0 and early Macintosh. VBF42 was the resident font in software sold by Vanguard Business Forms until the company was purchased in 1994.

So is that the last word on this? No, not at all, because it isn't the truth. That "person" who wrote it does not legally exist under that name in the US. It is a lame attempt to mislead people by someone who made their very first post here using a name which was made up to imply they had information about the mysterious Vanguard Business Forms company and its proprietary font.

In the 1990 Census for the US, of the 88,799 surnames listed, "Vanguard" does not appear. Nor does it appear anywhere in the 2010 Census of 162,252 surnames.

There are too many loose ends in this story that don't tie up neatly. That's why it matters.