"and please stop repeating yourself" - of course not!!!! till you'll learn how to post!!!! and how to use Public Forums!!!!


"why not?"
so start a new thread : The Swastika and Prejudice. the swastika and symbols.

And compare. Heller to Quinn. Quinn to Wilson etc etc etc.



David Hamuel

Some people use the Swastika because they want to prove a positive
point. That's balls

What positive point? Assuming you

DID YOU READ ???????????

What is this, a fit? Why are you shrieking?

But what about context?

Context matters, of course. And there are coincidences - but a sensitive
person, perceiving how it turned out, would change it. It all depends on
the

> What positive point?

It depends.
Like there's a guy (Canadian) who has the Swastika tatooed all over his body, but he's not anti-Jewish. (I don't use "anti-Semitic" here because Arabs are Semites too. BTW, Hitler was anti-Semitic: he hated Arabs too.)

>> "vast jewish conspiracy"

I wouldn't call it that.
1) It's not that vast. Armin for example hasn't been given "The Talk", apparently - but he's from Mexico.
2) "Conspiracy" seems to me to mean there is intent to hurt others. In this case I think there isn't. But the duplicity is still there. As with any form of propaganda. And everybody does it. It's just more offensive when the people doing it are the ones already in power.

It's not a matter of respecting a symbol (like you say, they don't deserve any such emotions), it's a matter of respecting your fellow people, and cultures - of not beating them to a pulp when they're already lying unconscious on the ground. "Pressing need"? To salvage the Swastika, not really. To salvage blackletter, a little bit, yes, although nothing like the pressing need to curb the modern-day Nazis - and I don't mean those impotent neo-Nazis, I mean the Axis of Evil: US, Israel, Turkey. That's proof right there that religion isn't the root of the problem, since the three major religions of the world are apparently united against humane living! :-/

So I'm not saying that the Jews should let go of the Swastika while others continue using it against them (as William pointed out - even though the Nazis are gone while Israel is currently messing up the Middle East - so it's different), I'm saying that there has to be less greed -and more honesty- in using it. We don't want another Holocaust, so back off - it's pretty simple. The world doesn't want you dead, they just want to live happy lives themselves - don't be paranoid to point of becoming Hitler yourselves.

--

David, Matha doesn't want to answer you question - get over it. If you think a person can't have a rational discussion about the Swastika without having read those books, show us why.

hhp

What is this debate about?

i found a lot more current Blackletter uses at the grocery store, especially
in the liquor section. Corona, Grand Marnier, etc. etc.

the Del Monte logo...

If anyone doesn't already know it, there's a special place here
at typophile for Blackletter stuff, moderated by John Butler.

http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/4077/4803.html?1063668156

To clarify, Heller wrote "fraktur" and some of the current blackletter
usage is not necessarily "fraktur"...

* sorry to interrupt *

Don't get me started, Joseph. You'll all be at retiring age before I'm finished.



Queen Victoria (The 'Famine Queen') is our symbol for the Great Famine. Usually she's done up like something out of an Edgar Allen Poe tale. Here she is struggling with Hibernia/Erin in 1890.

Matha

It's just a question of time, guys. Until there's not a generation of young people for whom blackletter (or the swastika for that matter) has no inherent symbolic meaning (and no bad memories), we won't be able to use it in the same way we use other symbols. It's happening already with blackletter in hip/trendy arenas, it will also happen with the swastika.

I haven't read Heller's book either, but maybe, as a historian, the Holocaust is still too present for him. In this case his opinions wouldn't be prejudist, just misinformed ones. It would be a personal issue.

ps. I can understand the feeling; growing up in Spain just after the transition from military dictatorship to democracy, the Spanish flag became a symbol for the right wing fascists opposed to the change. I still cannot see the flag of my country and feel proud about it, no matter how joyous the occasion (ie. Real Madrid winning the soccer Champions League) ;-)

as a historian, the Holocaust is still too present for him.

I can understand that too. He's far too close to his subject and the result is more of a personal commentary (as plain*clothes suggested earlier) or a cri de coeur than history or criticism. Unfortunately he isn't being totally honest with himself or his readers about that.
In fact, Allworth Press are problaby more to blame than Heller himself for disguising a pamphlet as a history book.

M

> the Holocaust is still too present for him.

Well, the Armenian Genocide is about 30 years older, but it's still totally present for most Armenians (including me), not least because Turkey still denies it, and no reparations have been made - not to mention all our ancestral land that we lost after more than 2500 years of living on it. The reason 5 million out of our 8 million population lives outside our [now-tiny] country is because of the Genocide. Plus Turkey and Azerbaijan have been imposing a trade blockade for many years, with the latter carrying out pogroms of Armenians as well.

Why? The Axis of Evil won't let us get ahead.

--

BTW, when I was in Pe

Hrant,

I forgot to mention, Salem was an associate/friend of George W. Bush. "pals".



Gerald Giampa

Is there any way you could verify that for me? Keep in mind that Salem may have invested under a corporate name. Perhaps an airport.

Gerald,

I know Hrant knows everything but just in case, here's a book that should help.

Ben Laden : La V

> You don't seem happy about some situations in the world.

It's more than that - I have a problem with the world's overall direction,
possibly since the Elightenment, but at least since the Industrial Revolution.

I'm [essentially] agnostic, but these words by Catich about Gill ring so true:
"He hit on the basic weakness of western culture and life
of the past five centuries. He saw clearly thirty years ago
what only a few are dimly realizing now. He spoke out
against the disunity (dis-intergration) of man; a state in
which man is not only divided from God and neighbor
but is divided even within himself."

--

In Castillian "bush" is indeed "arbusto", but I don't know of any such connection (although it wouldn't be surprising). Part of the bin Laden clan is actually involved in either Bechtel or Halliburton (I forget which - it doesn't really matter anyway), two firms conveniently making a lot of money off of Iraqi misery at the moment.

The degree to which the financial interests of the bin Laden clan are intertwined with those of Big White Business is indeed telling. In fact I don't think it's crazy to at least suspect that bin Laden and/or Saddaam (especially the latter) are on the US payroll. If you'd only seen the strange bedfellows that war makes as I have in Lebanon...

Anyway, this is getting too far off-topic.
I think we should talk about how to get Heller to back off from defaming blackletter. Maybe a petition?

hhp

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenberg/web/pgsdbl560/1_009010_009b001r.html
Nice link, Gerald. I got to see a Gutenberg Bible in Paris last year. A very beautiful book indeed and in surprisingly excellent condition.

M.

Hans Heitmann's "Fraktoer" font

and a smashing font it is too. I'm game.
A collection of short letters to Heller set in this font would make the point, I reckon.

M.

1) I don't have the font...

There's always a snag.

2) You should get John Butler in on this (even though politically he's incompatible with you and me).

He must be on holidays or something. Otherwise he'd already be in here posting stuff.

As to being politically incompatible with the two of us, he wouldn't be the only one. But politics aside, this would definitely be his sort of gig. Unless, of course, Heller is his hero. But I suppose that's not very likely considering their typographic incompatibility.

3) I'm not into convincing individuals directly....

If people are interested - and I think there may be a few - there mightn't be any need for convincing.
Contributions shouldn't be too difficult to come across either and John Butler would be the ideal chef de projet to coordinate things.

Matha

OK, start a new thread in the blackletter SIG...

I've left them a note. Couldn't remember 'Frakturstreit', though, so I called it 'Steven Heller gone to far?'. They'll be asking for my CV again.

M.

still?





David Hamuel