'dents' in a letterform - what's the proper name?

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Tanya's picture
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005 - 6:40am
'dents' in a letterform - what's the proper name?
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Hi all,

I am writing a logo and brand guidelines and I cannot remember the proper name for the 'dent' in a letterform.
For example the letter 'k'. I have looked on the web and can't seem to locate it.

If anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
T.

Dan Reynolds's picture
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002 - 11:00am
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The angle?

Could that join inside the k be refered to as the shoulder?

Sometime the angle inside the letter v (where the two legs meet) is called the crotch.

Pieter van Rosmalen's picture
Joined: 3 Mar 2005 - 3:23am
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Or do you mean trapping?

Dan Reynolds's picture
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002 - 11:00am
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Trapping is when you over compensate for printing errors and fill-ins with your design (ok, that is oversimplifying things a bit…), like in Bell Centennial Bold Listing. it isn't the term for the general joins within a letter, which I believe is what Tanya is asking for.

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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"is when you over compensate for printing errors"
it is only "overcompensation" when you over do it.

To me, trapping is also a way to open visual space at small sizes--even if ther was no ink plugging going on. Angle joins of M, W, and N are examples of glyphs that might need it. The bolder the weight, the more likely the need will arise.

ChrisL

Dave Bailey's picture
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005 - 3:07pm
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Do you mean the negative space between the arm and the leg of the 'k'? Maybe a sort of counter? or maybe it doesn't have a name

Tim Daly's picture
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Joined: 11 Sep 2003 - 9:04am
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A crotch or a groin where the arm and leg join.
Trapping is likely to be confused with the same term in reproduction for print, I think inktrap or cutaway would avoid confusion.
Confusion reigns.
Tim

Pieter van Rosmalen's picture
Joined: 3 Mar 2005 - 3:23am
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Thanks Tim, inktrap is indeed what I wanted to say.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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But since Chris is right that traps fight optical effects
at small sizes and not just ink gain, "inktrap" is more
misleading than any momentary and rare confusion with
the print production term. Many terms are overloaded,
but sometimes that's not the worst thing that could
happen to them.

Tanya, I really have no idea what she means.
The "k" is not a typically/prominently trapped
letter, but neither does it seem to have any
part that looks like a "dent"...

hhp

Tanya's picture
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005 - 6:40am
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Hi all,

Thank you (s) for your replies. I think 'crotch' best describes it. The sentence goes something like this:
'The x-height in slogan/tagline should never be taller than the 'crotch' in the letter 'k' within the logo.' This will then be supported by an illustration.
Sounds better than saying 'indent' or angle if you know what I mean?

Thanks again,
T.

Mark Simonson's picture
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Joined: 3 Dec 2001 - 11:00am
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You could say "join." It's not standard type jargon, but it's descriptive.

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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Join sounds less painful as a word image than crotch does, even though it is a perfect description. Groin is another as in "Groin Vault" architecturally.

ChrisL

Peter Enneson's picture
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Joined: 21 Mar 2005 - 1:17pm
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not technical, but: elbow
more technical: upper diagonal / lower diagonal join

Dave Bailey's picture
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005 - 3:07pm
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I like the 'crotch' description...scandalous!

Norbert Florendo's picture
Joined: 9 Jun 2005 - 2:21pm
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Specific to the letters "k" and "K" the upper diagonal is called the "arm" and the lower diagonal is called the "leg".

So I guess the crotch would be somewhere between the arm and leg. ;-)

Dave Bailey's picture
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005 - 3:07pm
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Exactly my thinking, Norbert!

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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What about "chevron"?

> the upper diagonal is called the “arm” and ...

Sometimes they're both called "arm"s.

BTW guys, don't forget, the inside of the "v"* is sometimes called a "cleavage". :-)

* Or better, the inside of a Greek Upsilon!

hhp

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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You got a leg up on that one Norbert:-)

ChrisL

Daniel Weaver's picture
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Joined: 26 Aug 2003 - 4:14pm
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That would almost make a great typographic calendar. Sex and characters. One month could be K or k and V and so on.

Lauren Engelhardt's picture
Joined: 14 Oct 2005 - 2:24pm
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> Sex and characters.

I've always thought 'Q' to be a rather sexy one. :)

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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"I’ve always thought ‘Q’ to be a rather sexy one."
That is what Miss Moneypenny thought before she met 007.
Then he started F ing around and she went bach to sipping on T. :-)

ChrisL

Daniel Weaver's picture
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Joined: 26 Aug 2003 - 4:14pm
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This calendar has more potential than I thought. Poor Miss Moneypenny she never got what she wanted, maybe in the next bond when they are in the old age home.

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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Dialogue heard from the old age home:

"James dear, did Q make all of your equipment or is some of it, shall we say, all your own?"

"Why Money penny! What ever do you mean?"

"I mean your walker is parked in my spot James and I wanted to know if it was you I should blame or Q dear."

"Thank God! At first I thought you were talking about my PPK"

ChrisL