To LIG or not to LIG?

Primary tabs

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
HK's picture
HK
Offline
Joined: 21 Feb 2006 - 7:32pm
To LIG or not to LIG?
0

To lig or not to lig? That is the question.

When should I use ligatures and when should I not?

I know that for formal publications it is generally accepted that you should use ligatures …

But for ads, flyers, biz cards??????

Any thoughts??

John Savard's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Nov 2009 - 8:42pm
0

@loaves and fishes:
I believe "dan_reynolds" was speaking in a foreign language.

You are correct. The language is known as "German", and is spoken in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Prior to World War I, it was also used in the Alsatian region of France.

Khaled Hosny's picture
Offline
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 - 4:57am
0

@quadibloc
6 years later is a bit too late for a sarcastic reply, I think.

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

> ads, flyers, biz cards??????

Yes, but if it's too much work use InDesign and better fonts (openType) where the ligs should get placed automatically for you.

Dave Bailey's picture
Offline
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 - 3:07pm
0

I'm going to agree with sii here, the type foundry/designer didn't put the ligs in the font for fun. Use them! :-D

Alessandro Segalini's picture
Joined: 5 Oct 2005 - 5:14pm
0

You can have a ligature of six question marks.

Tim Daly's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Sep 2003 - 9:04am
0

What ligatures are you talking about? Generally I would use fi, fl, ffi and ffl, if available, but for me many other ligatures (st, ct for example) are far better kept as options, certainly they have a place in some setting.

Tim

Alessandro :)

Luc Devroye's picture
Offline
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 - 9:53am
0

Regarding Sii's comment that OpenType fonts are "better"
because ligatures are placed automatically.

Fonts are inert objects. Ligatures are placed by applications
that use fonts. The only responsibility of a font is to
store enough information so that applications can work
with ligatures. Type 1 and truetype fonts can both store
ligatures. In the AFM files of type 1 fonts, one can store
additional information that may help applications with
automatic ligature subsitution and placement of ligatures
on the page. The famous GPOS and GSUB tables in OpenType
can be introduced in truetype fonts as well--there is nothing
that ties these tables umbilically to OpenType.

So, how exactly are OpenType fonts better?

Dan Reynolds's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 - 11:00am
0

The famous GPOS and GSUB tables in OpenType
can be introduced in truetype fonts as well—there is nothing
that ties these tables umbilically to OpenType.

Doesn't that just make the TrueType font a TrueType-flavored OpenType font?

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

> InDesign and better fonts

Luc, nice to see you here again. You may have missed my point, I said InDesign and OpenType fonts provide an automatic solution. By better fonts I meant OpenType fonts with more ligatures (mapped using GSUB) than your typical Type 1 font. As opposed to same OpenType fonts with the same number of ligs as your typical Type 1 font.

Theoretically someone could write a page layout app that would do a good job with sets of Type 1 or regular TrueType fonts (perhaps referencing an online database mapping the expert sets in some kind of virtual GSUB). But is seems like an awful lot of work when OpenType provides all the information an app needs.

Cheers, Si

Luc Devroye's picture
Offline
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 - 9:53am
0

Hi Dan-- Wie gehts?

You are right that GPOS and GSUB are typical tables in
TrueType flavored OpenType fonts. But they can be found
in many blue-blooded TrueType fonts as well. These are
mostly for Arabic scripts where positioning and replacement
are crucial.

Thanks to google's capability of opening binary files such
as TrueType files, you can find examples of such fonts by
a simple search such as
filetype:ttf GSUB

I do not wish to hijack this thread though.

All the best and see you soon,

Luc

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

Luc is correct here - GSUB and GPOS predate OpenType by several years, and were used in shipping Arabic fonts before OpenType.

See the "TrueType Open" Spec posted here...

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/SpecificationsOverview.mspx

OpenType was positioned as "TrueType Open version 2".

Dan Reynolds's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 - 11:00am
0

Mir geht's ganz gut, danke!

Typequake's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 - 4:35pm
0

Oh, hello?!

Many typefaces do not require ligatures. Some of the not-so-obscure ones include Trump, Sabon, and perhaps you've heard of it - Palatino.
Just don't kern the roman.

Patricia Fabricant's picture
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 - 9:40am
0

Use the ligatures where they are available. fi fl ff ffi ffl especially, I'm with Tim on the "optional" ligatures, it depends on how you want your type to look.

Gerald Giampa's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 May 2004 - 11:15pm
0

As always I urge ligatures to be used. However tracking can cause problems. As always I urge that tracking be turned off. At least always until Adobe adopts my self tracking ligature invention.

As always!

Giampa

HK's picture
HK
Offline
Joined: 21 Feb 2006 - 7:32pm
0

From InDesign CS2 Help System:

    Ligatures


InDesign can automatically insert ligatures, which are typographic replacement characters for certain letter pairs, such as “fi” and “fl,” when they are available in a given font. The characters that InDesign uses when the Ligature option is selected appear and print as ligatures, but are fully editable, and do not cause the spell checker to flag a word erroneously.

    Discretionary Ligatures


Discretionary Ligatures Font designers may include optional ligatures [i.e. – “ct”, “st”, “sp”] that should not be turned on in all circumstances. Selecting this option allows these additional optional ligatures to be used, if they are present.

© 2005® Adobe® Systems® Incorporated®. All® rights® reserved®.

HK's picture
HK
Offline
Joined: 21 Feb 2006 - 7:32pm
0

"Mir geht’s ganz gut, danke!"

I believe "dan_reynolds" was speaking in a foreign language.

Dan Reynolds's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 - 11:00am
0

Oh, that's just because Luc asked me at the end of his post how I was doing (in German). Neither of us have German as our native language. I just said that I was fine. Sorry for the whole inside-joke thing, HK.