Hrant, It’s pretty subtle; I was trying to see how closely I could match the multi-line composer’s version with MM scaling. There are diﬀerences. They’re more apparent in the middle of the lines, because I took pains matching the ends. Look at a
I am busy now, but hanging punctuation is not without notice.
Here is how our TeX-brethren do it. Here is what it can look like. See especially pp. 23-28.
Interesting John, wish I’d seen Hans presentation. That lecture was in 1999, does PDFTeX now support hanging punctuation? H
Both full ragged right and full justiﬁcation are primitive solutions. The ancient Greeks knew how to make a “soft rag” paragraph, in that old pragmatic way of balancing everything, something that was lost with the provincial absolutism of the Romans which pervades the West to this day. hhp
I can’t seem to click on your PDF to download it. hhp
Yeah, it’s unclickable here too. Let’s wait and come back later. I’ve seen this kind of thing before, and I just had to wait and return. Then, I could download the attachment normally.
I knew something was amiss last night, my browser hung every time I tried to upload the message. Here
> Rag is controlled through hyphenation. Which makes the rag on the left column nicer. But hyphens suck. Wasn’t Thomas saying that there’s a way to soften the rag without (or with less) hyphenation? hhp
I don’t agree that all hyphens suck, but the two instances of: InDe- sign do.
I’ve not found that feature in my version Hrant, it may be one of the new “things” in InDesign CS. Agreed James, it was late and I was hurrying. Not a good combination for ﬁne work. I think hyphenation works well why it’s used in moderation. Some of you must have purchased the upgrade for InDesign CS, is there a more sophisticated setup for rag right now?
Even in InDesign 2, the multi-line composer will try to make a relatively even rag in terms of evaluating line break options for all lines in each paragraph interactively. *IF* you have hyphenation on, it will also use hyphenation and you can use the slider to choose your preferred balance between more even spacing (= more even rag with ragged right setting) vs. more hyphenation. So with ragged right setting, one might turn on hyphenation, but use the slider to make it an option of last resort by preferring a rougher rag over hyphenation. T
That’s great stuﬀ. hhp
Also see his thesis.
[ This thread moved to Design ]
Golly, Hrant, you’re never one to dwell on the subtleties, nuances and counter-evidential examples are you? Why look at books when you can just make broad general assertions! There are many examples of soft rag in the manuscript and print traditions of Western Europe, but the dominant model in the Western formal book manuscript was justiﬁcation by letter expansion and contraction, which is itself a very ﬂuid technique, not remotely ‘absolutist’. Gutenberg emulated this technique in the 42-line Bible, but within a few years it was abandoned in favour of eﬃciency.
Hrant, We must be talking about a diﬀerent Eric Gill. The one I am referring to was an English wood cut artist. He wore dresses and designed some remarkable type. He wasn’t Greek was he? Didn’t think so. I never liked it when white men played parts as black men. Or white men acting as American Indians in movies for that matter. Ever watched the “Lone Ranger”? Did you like it? Integration of cultures is not always a good thing! Everyone speaking the same language, not for me. Where do you stand on “Typographical Integration”? For me, I like my type well set. I don’t care if the French eat their steaks rare. Gerald Giampa
I have recently read the elements of typographic style. Bringhurst says that combining word spacing with ragged paragraphs puts the worst of both systems in a single text.