Which one do you mean?

There's some Gerard Unger flavour in there -- check DTL Paradox, Coranto and the likes.

And some Poppl too.
But really, Kris's stuff is pretty inimitable.

hhp

Kris is trying to get his out the door. I hope you can just use his. Have you contacted him about it?

ChrisL

If you can wait, it will be ready in about a month, hopefully sooner!

—K

It's a lovely font, and I will certainly purchase it when it's released.

Bravo!

Any info on pricing (if I may be so bold to ask) and cuts/weights?

[[KLIM]] will be distributed by village (www.vllg.com) which has a price range from $39-$60 for a single weight. I'd expect the price to fall within that range. As for weights, I have no guess.

It will have Roman, Italic, Small Caps, Bold & Display cuts. All will have nice OT character sets, the language support that we all like to have and pretty little ligatures to spice things up a tad. So nothing too large, it is only my first one, and I don't want to go overboard. Keep it manageable, y'know?

—K

How about Thirsty Metaxa in Basil? :-)

ChrisL

PS: It lokks graet Kris, I am glad you didn't let it die withn you :-)

Those are some of the most elegant ligatures I've seen. You are quite the curve wrangler. Yum!

No bold italic? As a publication designer, that can be a deal-breaker for me.

"No bold italic? As a publication designer, that can be a deal-breaker for me."

I understand. At this stage, I am just dipping my toes in. If all goes well, then I will happily expand the range if needed!

—K

You are doing the right thing Kris. Get it out there show the world your stuff. Your first release does not cut off develpment of more styles. I will be looking forward to being a customer.

ChrisL

Kia Ora, Kris. Every time I think of New Zealand I think of racing yachts - those amazing "Kiwis" in that famous Defender's Cup black boat, Black Magic, NZL 32. Undefeated in competition. I always found that sport fascinating. I have a bit of education in that area: White Sail 3 certification. Nothing stellar, but give me a bathtub with a sail and I think I can make it to shore alright.

Anyway, I see that Feijoa is nearly complete - 91%, apparently. I eagerly await this gem. Are there any sample pdfs to tide us over until the release?

Hmm, looking forward to that. Gorgeous.

"Are there any sample pdfs to tide us over until the release?"

Sorry mate, not just yet. I am too close to finishing to make any PDF's, if that makes any sense…

—K

It makes sense to me :-)

ChrisL

So how is this gem coming along? Projected release date?

Well, according to vllg, it's still "on the horizon."

On Kris' updated site, it states it's "about 91% finished and should be ready for release by mid–late 2006". ;^)

Hopefully by the end of the month…

—K

A few language tests…

That lowercase "b" is quite an achievement. Very nice touch. And the i-n ligature is interesting. I think you pulled that off rather well. One doesn't see that sort of ligature very often.

These previews look great, but the short passage of text you have on your site looks fantastic.

Kris,

I love this, and I eagerly anticipate its release. For that matter I'm dying for Salamanca, and Zinc looks worth focusing on as well. I know it's a juggle.

Please consider making all these ligatures available only on a discretionary basis. Some of them seem frankly gratuitous, and they would very much hinder extended reading. Especially in languages where lots of accents are present, they could really distract.

In that context, I do not think the unjoined b or q will be strong enough. Is there a reason not to join them, considering all the other shapes? They jar me. The serif version of Salamanca (it is coming, yes?...) might be the place for such experiments. Otherwise this has such nice color and a comfortable feel for reading. Don't stop!

Yo,

These are totally going to be discretionary & stylistic ligs—I was trying out uncommon combinations, and it seems to be working. Don't actually know if people will use them ,but it amuses me nevertheless! Only a madman would put them in as defaults. There is a very good reason for the b & q: I like it like that. Perhaps I could include joined versions as calts…

—K

Friggin fabulous Kris!

ChrisL

"There is a very good reason for the b & q: I like it like that."

I assume you're joking. Such talk angers the gods.

I rather like the b and q open just as they are--then again, I am just a mortal.

ChrisL

I am fine with the b p, but something is weird about the screen display of the smaller type of your 10:35 posting, at least on my screen. At times the u looks wider than the n and at others the n looks wider, and it generally dazzles in not a good way. The display on your web site is fine, as Palatine says.

> Is there a reason not to join them

Dude, don't be such a Modernist.

hhp

Bill: don't worry mate, they are the correct size in vector. This is just a quick screen-grab from the InDesign.

Carl: it was actually the gods that suggested that I keep them open, so even talking about closing them will incur the wrath of the heavens. Best we don't speak about it…

—K

"Dude, don’t be such a Modernist."

Nope, just looking at the visual scratchiness those areas create, which I think interrupts the smooth and comfortable feel elsewhere. They remind me of letterpress type with scratches and nicks.

Hrant, I'm surprised at you; you're always going on about removing yourself from type design and working to serve the reader.

"...the gods that suggested that I keep them open"

You mean she talks to you too? :-)

ChrisL

Carl, it's more accurate to say that I always go on about trying to tame oneself ; and adding that I also always go on about the limits (not least in terms of benefits to the reader) of formal aesthetic control. The b/d/p/q for example want to be the same largely in the same way that teenage girls generally want to be same; which only really benefits people trying to sell ]to[ them.

hhp

If you think that is my concern is that vapid, you simply do not see what I see.

No, I just think it has trace amounts of vapidity,
due to external socioprofessional conditioning. :-)
And I have some of that too you know.

hhp

Carl, I share your concern, but I don't experience the visual interruption you do. To me it is like the open loop on the Baskerville g: a stylistic variation that doesn't intrude. Do you think that, for example, the open b in Fedra and Fedra Sans also hurts those faces?

It looks beautiful from this view: http://www.klim.co.nz/content/type/feijoa_01.html

I'm sure it'll function very nicely on paper.

William,

I think Fedra Serif is a suitable environment for the variations that you mention, considering the other gaps, stub terminals, angles, and general eclecticism there. The b fits, in other words. In the sans, I do not think it fits.

Kris may have more to say about this, since we only exchanged quips, but the reason he cited ("I like it like that") sounds to me like he is attached to those gaps for no functional reason, and has not tried eliminating them yet. It might be that adding more gaps would somehow make these 2 fit. They could be all over: 4 6 8 9 0 A B D H K P Q R U a d e g k p, and that would change the design a lot. but given the way the design is working now (and it is working beautifully) they don't fit; they are the lone elements that interrupt the flow of reading in such an otherwise subtle and pleasing typeface; the soft bracketing, rich color, fluid curves, excellent spacing, and the other bowls which resolve differently all work on such a different, more subliminal level, that by contrast these 2 gaps look affected and showy. I invite Kris to try:

Put more unjoined bowls in the design throughout (though leave i-ligatures off while testing),

or

close these 2, and examine dispassionately whether anything of value is lost, or if something else happens. Is it really important they be there; do they contribute anything?

or

Turn the unjoined strokes in more, to match the flow of the strokes in the bowls of d and p.

Kris' design has so many strengths, and one way for typefaces to be resolved fully is for the designer to try many things, letting go of favorite elements, and as someone else put it here recently, let it become itself. Because of the many unnecessary (confusing? gratuitous?) i-ligatures, and because of Kris' stated reason for keeping these cuts, I had to at least suggest he try losing them.

For me, showy ligatures look horribly out of place and distracting within text. So, Carl, I share your distaste for Kris' i ligatures, at least in the sample usage. But since they are discressionary, I don't think it matters.

Your observation on Fedra sans vs serif is interesting. Bil'ak did a 'Fedra sans alt' replacing the more unusual characters, including the open b. I wonder if that was partly a response to requests from customers--which would tend to confirm your view.

This typeface and the design of the ligatures Klim are fantastic.

While I am no way near a typograher, and I understand that the overuse of ligatures can distort readability, I still find these visually charming.

I am a sucker for using ligatures. Well done.

KLIM takes a ligging and keeps on tigging :-)
I think it is quite refreshing and, since it is discretionary, totally harmless.

ChrisL

"Kris may have more to say about this, since we only exchanged quips, but the reason he cited (“I like it like that”) sounds to me like he is attached to those gaps for no functional reason, and has not tried eliminating them yet."

Of course I haven't tried eliminating them, I see absolutely no problem with them. I read text set in type that has similar forms without trouble, I read text set in Feijoa without trouble! If they upset you then that is a shame. At this stage I am not going to change it. If there is overwhelming feedback that supports your concern, then I will consider changing the forms.

"The designer has to try many things, letting go of favourite elements."

I have tried many things, I have let go of favourite elements. But erasing every little quirk or detail I like that may not be deemed purely functional will render the typeface dull & overworked. I have already spent far too long on this already. I cannot help that I want parts of me in there, parts that I like, for designing type gives me great pleasure. I cannot work dispassionately, that would kill the buzz, especially when it is an uncommissioned typeface.

I suppose the function in these forms is to give me pleasure.

"Who would say that pleasure is not useful?"
—Charles Eames.

This is an interesting discussion. Here are some other forms that are 'unjoined':

The spine of the "8" seems slightly too stiff.

hhp

Kris, stick to your guns with this one. It is a fine face as is and needs to be out on the market. The world needs more type that pushes the envelope. We have plenty of classic go-by-the-rules broadly accepted faces out there already. It is one thing to respect the classic successes of the past; it is another to cringe in awe and fear of them. Make your own fonts; make your own pleasure. Be who you are proudly.
There are some people who only like their old sweater because they know from years of wear that it suits them and makes them comfy. There are plenty of other folks who would just love to have a new sweater to try on, break in, and grow to feel comfy in as well.

Go for it kris!

ChrisL

> The world needs more type that pushes the envelope.

Agreed 100%. But some envelopes are better than others.
For a text face, a proper grasp and valuation of reading is
much more useful (or at least less banal) than that of style.

hhp

I am not talking about style and I think this text face has a very firm grasp on the valuation of reading. It is also a damn fine envelope.

ChrisL

Klim is gorgeous, but I recently had a typeface where I had to do a lot of loop jumping to not use the st and ct ligs. I decided that I wouldn't use that typeface again unless I wanted the ligs. I would hope you, Kris, wouldn't remove the quirks, but would allow those of us who are interested in licensing your typeface the option of turning them off.

>proper grasp and valuation of reading is
much more useful (or at least less banal) than that of style.

I think that among highly readable faces there is still room for variation in style. One can really only judge readability in the intended final use of the face, such as print or screen. But to me it looks like the open elements in Feijoa are no obstacle to readability and are pleasing stylistic features.

If I thought they compromised readability, as Carl thinks, I would say that they should be cut--or filled!--but they look fine to me. And Kris has a gift for beautiful letters, in evidence here, which is a great plus.

Cheers guys. Like I mentioned earlier, all ligs are either discretionary or stylistic OpenType sets. They are easily turned on & off! I wouldn't consider them integral to the 'readability' of the face, they are just there for fun.

> there is still room for variation in style.

This is backwards.

> One can really only judge readability in the intended final use of the face

No, one can only judge readability via an indirect but firm understanding
of how humans read; because it relies so fundametally on the subconscious.

hhp

:^o Maybe I entered the conversation at a bad moment. I didn't realize that Kris. If they are discretionary or stylistic then there are ZERO problems cause the typeface IS gorgeous.

im really liking fejoa, and if i was klim i wouldnt change a thing. and i probably would take any advice from the designer of curlz with a pretty big grain of salt.

Oooh! Zing! ; )

But Oliver, that's not the only design of mine, nor is it mine originally. I get credit for it, and for Adobe's woodtype 3 package, because I finished them, not because I originated them. Be careful going down that path, Oliver. On typophile, where people might seem anonymous, it's a minefield. For instance, which are your typefaces?.....

Chris, and Kris: Hrant is catching something I think you both missed: I'm not in any way critiquing the style of Feijoa. This design, along with Kris' other designs, absolutely sing with style, inventiveness and freshness. Honestly? Kris is one of my favorite new typeface designers. But here, where Kris has stated an intention to design a text face, style is of secondary importance: ALL my comments refer to the function, the performance of it in running text. The style of Feijoa would not be harmed by my suggestions. I'm making these comments, not out of cowering fear of breaking convention, but to ensure that the style of it is not marred by a flaw in structure.

Despite all this, It sounds like nobody else is having this issue, so maybe it will not be a problem after all. I also realize it was earlier this year, on a different thread, when Kris solicited free commentary, that I should have pointed this out. Apologies, Kris, for throwing a wrench in at the last minute. Carry on, and I will welcome Feijoa along with multitudes of others, I am sure. As I've said, this design has some qualities that are very rare and very desireable. Rich color, deep warmth, and sprightly proportions. Good luck when you get to the Village!

Oliver, I agree with Carl. It's not good form to come onto a forum treading on toes right and left, unless you don't really intend on integrating yourself as a part of or community.

Either way, I think Kris has made a customer out of me. :-)

Just tell us, Kris: how do you pronounce Feijoa? We'll be asking for it by name.... ; )

Feijoa
From Webster's Dictionary.

In my dealings with Kris, he has indicated that the name is pronounced "Fee-Joe-Uh".

Is that you Chester?

hhp

Village is correct, that is how it is pronounced.

Y'all should see if you can get your hands on some of the fruit, it really is very nice!

—K

Great name, nice touch with the allusion to the fruit. And as to the font itself, what I'm seeing on your site now (the little passage about Siddhartha, most revered teacher), looks absolutely beautiful. It might perform slightly differently on paper, but just go with your gut on this one.

The more you second-guess yourself and over-tweak things, the more it will be to the font's detriment in the end.

Not to bump or anything, but it really is going to be released soon! We are just working on the OT implementation & cross-platform compatibility. This is a screenshot from the FontExplorer Glyph palette.

I think it covers the following languages: Afrikaans, Albanian, Arumanian, Asturian, Azerbaijani, Basque, romanised Belarusian, Bislama, Breton, Bosnian, romanised Bulgarian, romanised Burmese, Catalan, Chamorro, Chichewa, Cornish, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Old English, Middle English, Esperanto, Estonian, Faroese, Finnish, French, Frisian, Friulian, Galician, German, traditional German, transliterated Greek, Greenlandic, Guarani, Hawai'ian, Hungarian, Ibo, Icelandic, Indonesian, Irish Gaelic, Italian, romanised Japanese, Kashubian, romanised Kazakh, romanised Korean, Kurdish, romanised Kyrgyz, romanised Laotian, Latin, Latvian, Lithuanian, Livonian, romanised Macedonian, Malagasy, Maltese, Maori, Marshallese, Moldavian, romanised Mongolian, Norwegian, Occitan, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Romansch, romanised Russian, Inari Saami, North Saami, Lule Saami, Skolt Saami, South Saami, Samoan, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Slovak, Slovenian, Lower Sorbian, Upper Sorbian, Spanish, Traditional Spanish, Swahili, Swedish, Tagalog, romanised Tajik, romanised Tatar, Tswana, Tongan, Turkish, romanised Turkmen, romanised Ukrainian, Ulithian, Uzbek, Walloon, Welsh, Wolof, Yapese, and many transliterated South Asian languages.

Chur!

—K

Lookin good Kris! Now you can bump that "percent completed" notice up to 99.7%?

:-)

ChrisL

what? no Greek or Cyrillic?

;^p

i was totally kidding about the Greek/Cyrillic. Are we going to see this available before the end of the year? or just after the new year?

Hi Paul,

Chester is working on the final font files at the moment. With any luck it should be out shortly, hopefully before Christmas! At last…

I also closed up the b & q after seeing it set in offset! So there you go, Carl, hopefully that will keep you happy!

—K

Bravo Kris! Your long day's journey will soon come to an end with holiday cheer.

ChrisL

Excellent; congratulations, Kris.

About bloody time mate! Me & my mates have been wating for ages for you to release it, and well forgive you even though your a kiwi and all!!

Muzz

The wait is over.
http://vllg.com/KLIM/Feijoa/mudTyper+Weights/

Fabulous. Congratulations on what I'm sure is the first of many great type faces to come.