Another is that the impersonality of written communication
causes our repressed negativism to be channeled through it.
My hope is that I -and others- can assimilate and leverage
whatever is thrown around, instead of adopting unnatural
behavior... whatever the hell that means.
Patty: Testosterone? I dunno. I used to enjoy a good fight (mental or physical) but I also didn’t like hurting people, so I avoided them except when it seemed important. Now that I’m getting to be middle aged, enjoying them - not so much.
Insert some platitude here like “people are different.”
I don’t think there is a problem with discourse and dialogue which promotes healthy exchange of differing ideas. The problem is that some people revert to personal attacks rather than just presenting more evidence supporting their own opinion. The evidence is what convinces and what spreads knowledge to others. The personal attacks just kill whatever respect people might have had for the attacker and don’t win supporters of that person’s point of view. Opinions and passions are fine but when they escalate to insults, nobody wins or learns.
But the people, the persons, are the entire context of it all. Remove that, and
you’re left with a formal, clinical illusion - an irrelevant posturing/venting.
what chris said.
also, if someone begins making personal attacks or hateful remarks in general against anyone/any group, please ask them to stop and edit their own posting. if these kinds of remarks continue, please contact a moderator.
Lord knows it doesn’t make me want to participate! I can imagine it might scare off newbies too. I don’t see why the conversation can’t remain civil. This is a forum about type and design, not a group therapy session.
Typoholics Anonymousin Room 101
Recovering typoholics tell harrowing tales of how type ruined their lives. How their wives accused them of seeing women like Caecilia, Tiffany and Mrs Eaves from down the road or whose husbands accused them of whoring about with the likes of Arnold Boeklin and the Duc de Berry.
Typophile Rehabilitationin Room 102
The state has released these typophiles after progressively worsening and repeated type offences in the hope that some heavy handed group therapy will sort them out. Each one’s story similar to the next. How it all started with a harmless affair with a small Dolly.
It’s not you, it’s your ideas (otherwise I would never
say anything nice about you - which I do, as warranted).
But I would never ask you to not have them, or even not
express them, and I certainly wouldn’t ask a moderator
to censure you. But everybody is different, and if some-
body feels the need to do those things I need to tolerate
that (which is not the same thing as shutting up about it).
This is why I put my faith in the people who manage this
great place, as opposed to its individual participants.
Remember: monarchist. :-)
I reiterate, why go below the belt? Everyone is entitled to their ideas, and to agree or disagree with others ideas. But the insults shouldn’t have to get personal. Y’all are sounding like rightwing radio pundits.
Don’t know Patty, I guess some enjoy it, I must confess I have actually enjoyed a couple of rants, and I know it only makes it worse, so let’s try to avoid them.
I have. The antidote to rage is the power of compassion and acceptance of the dignity of all, including Hrant—who deserves to be treated with respect just as do you and I.
I don’t know how best to foster that spirit of compassion in Typophile discussions, but I do know that returning insults is not going to help. The best way to moderate discussions is by a moderator, but these are voluntary and have limited time.
Thanks for posting this Patty. While I’m no saint, I’ve been increasingly discouraged by the constant bickering and pissing contests I’ve been seeing lately. There’s some real knowledge on this site, its just a shame to see the egos constantly get in the way. I’ve also noticed that people who used to contribute to this site more frequently aren’t around as often anymore as well. Could there be a connection? As of now, I’m a recovering typoholic.
I haven’t been around that much lately, but not just because of that reason. Somehow the atmosphere has changed a bit. It’s a pitty. Before there was more positive discussion and helping. I don’t find that that much anymore these days.
I would love to be more on Typophile, so I will stay tuned.
Hi Terry...
nice to see your “blue face” again ;-)
Notice that I’ve gone “faceless” myself in my avatar.
As for the debate tactics of some of the posts, it just makes it a little harder to glean the wisdom within threads while having to wade through the “organic fertilizer”.
You have a point Terry I don’t enjoy the negative comments and would rather visit another site. The one thing I try to do is find things to lighten the mood of people here.
Typophile embodies three crafts - type design, graphic design and typography - and treats two subjects - text type and display type. Given this range, and to a lesser extent the cultural and philosophical range of the people using the site, there’s a lot of fundamental disagreement.
There are two possible responses for the moderators. The liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferences, not to be arbitrated between from above. The Aristotelian response would have it that all crafts have inherent in them a set of virtues which must be agreed upon for them to be virtues at all; that disputes concerning them should therefore normally be arbitrated as if the differing opinions held were either true or false; that crafts should be separately embodied where the virtues inherent to them clash, as they clearly do with graphic design and text design; and that in each embodiment, some kind of guild-like hierarchy of authority is required to legitimate arbitration.
Though Typophile has a formally designated ruling class, they’ve taken the liberal path. What follows is disagreement without the possibility of settlement, and this we see endlessly. Typophile is less valuable than it could be for the same reason in miniature that Western government is less valuable than it could be: within its field, it embodies no conception of the good.
Perhaps you didn’t want quite that much detail, Patty :-)
It works for me. I feel better to be dishing it out rather than enduring constant “needling”, as you put it. Also, I’ve found that after I bite back, he eases up on me for a while. Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?
I’ve asked him to lay off the personal remarks (for which I am mocked for being a whiny artiste), so have moderators, but he keeps right on. You can talk about this problem in general terms, but it’s rather obvious that the top dog here (200+ posts) sets the tone Patti decries, instigating most of the pissing contests and scaring away those who want to avoid them.
Nick, I know you don’t expect to be criticized,
and that it hurts, but do try to pay attention
to what others are saying. I am [trying to].
> I feel better
Well, of itself that’s a good reason.
But what makes a given person feel better isn’t necessarily good for his society,
and a responsible “citizen” (which I’m not claiming I am, btw) minds that.
> after I bite back, he eases up on me
I don’t think that’s true, but if it is, that’s my
weakness - I’ll try to have more self-discipline.
I hope that when I ease off (again, from attacking
your ideas, if in the context of you - but not you)
it’s generally because I’m bored.
> 200+ posts
I think there’s an important elaboration due here: most of my posts are very short these days. If you count the number of bytes or something, I’m sure I’m not at the top. Just look at some of those big juicy threads with mega-posts, that I’m not even properly participating in. I need to take a vacation just to catch up with you guys!
Also: I’m sure you agree that I don’t need to post a lot to be offensive
to you. You complain about me even when I’m not on the prolific list.
It works for me
Absolutely: let’s not underestimate the satisfaction of replying to aggression with aggression. In a liberal environment, it’s all one’s got. Long term, I really do think there should be two General Discussions fora, one for text and absolute truth, the other for graphic design and cultural difference. Posting in either should entail at least a good tourist’s respect for the local world-view.
Don’t let somebody’s objectionable delivery distract
you from addressing the content. That’s the type of
thing I tend to mean when I use the term “tolerance”.
—
George, I think your intent is admirable, but that sort of purism is inhuman.
>Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?
>it works for me.
Having compassion and being a patsy are two different things. I am not saying that you shouldn’t respond, but I am saying that returning insults doesn’t help.
You say it works for you, but I don’t see the evidence. Hrant has not let up, and as you can see it doesn’t work for the rest of us, who don’t enjoy running across this stuff in otherwise interesting threads.
Just to be clear, even though I disagree with both you and Hrant half the time, I find you always well informed and often quite interesting. I often find Hrant interesting when he is not in a rage.
>liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferrences
George, that is one kind of relativist, soft-headed liberalism, which is unfortunately too common. But a belief in fostering a diversity of views within discussion is a traditional liberal belief that is consistent with strong values and decisions to enforce them. Among these strong values are beliefs in tolerance, civility within discussion, and non-violent ways of settling disputes. These are a part of the great liberal tradition in England and America, and I treasure them.
i must admit, as a moderator my style has been fairly laissez faire. but since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past, i will be tolerant of shenanigins no longer. if things get out of hand, don’t expect me to stand idlely by.
Yes. The biggest victim has been type crits. And I think
the more a person claims expertise and success, the more
he should participate in crits. It’s the Spiderman thing:
“With power comes responsability.”
> since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past
Which is very rare (and was not due to “Mr 200+”, Nick).
Bill, the values you mention are not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good within any practice (except that of governing an irreparably fractious society); they are, as it were, negative rather than positive values (with the exception of civility). You need more than tolerance: you need things to defend.
On the other hand, most people here actually do have a similar enough set of opinions. Where I disagree strongly I end up a contributor to some of the fights, so I doubt I’m a force for good. I’ll post less in future, but Typophile is wonderful, and I’m very grateful for what I’ve learnt from it. Thanks everyone!
>not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good
First of all the virtue ethics of Aristotle is weak because it is too focused on the person. But this would take us too far afield.
In any case the values I mention do absolutely serve to promote a dynamic society in which there is social improvement and the growth of knowledge. They have done so and will continue to do so. Tolerance is not a negative value because it requires a positive structure to support free exchange of ideas. Settling disputes by non-violent means is a positive value in fostering a whole variety of democratic institutions, including elections and court of law.
Opposite of the truth. While modern democratic societies have had their lapses, dictatorships like Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot etc. etc. have been far more intolerant of minority groups and of criticism of the government and diversity of opinion.
Bill, I think tolerance can be a negative value while still requiring a positive structure, just as a free market requires enforcement. You’re right to correct me on non-violence, it is indeed a positive value within the context of a law-possessing society, which every society should be. I’m not a democrat myself.
Back to the original topic, (while I haven’t been here for all that long), I think it’s just the natural evolution and ongoing maturity that needs to happen in any online community.
Don’t fight it too hard (the fighting), but try to steer it in the right direction.
Kind of like the old 6th grade put-down when someone says “You’re driving me crazy!”:
“That ain’t a drive, it’s a short putt.”
“Childish Pride Parade” coming soon to a city near you:
I don’t know Latin so I can’t come up with the phobia name for people who don’t like “men who are acting like children”, but if tolerance is what is being preached, why not men who act childish?
You could call this a childish idea, but whatever you say can simply be countered with the accusation that you suffer from the fear of men who act childish (this is where the Latin would come in handy), and your intolerance harkens back to burning witches at the stake, or some other ludicrous red-herring.
And if there is one thing I can’t tolerate, it is people who are intolerant.
> if men who act effeminate are to be tolerated unconditionally
Dennis, please refrain from any further statements of this nature in the future. Such personal preferences and/or behavior have nothing to do with type design or typography and are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or your arguments.
Many readers of these forums find off-hand statements on personality traits or lifestyles offensive.
>And if there is one thing I can’t tolerate, it is people who are intolerant.
In fact, most people cannot tolerate intolerance. Prehaps you could take this a bit more to heart.
I’m relatively new here, but nevertheless i’m raising my little voice :)
A short personal clash is not a problem for me (i like juice...), but it’s getting very confusing for the other readers, if the personal attacks are neverending and jumping from thread to thread.
Dennis - the “latin” world you’re looking for is homophobia and I wholeheartedly second Dan’s comment. You don’t miss a chance to slip that in, and it’s wildly inappropriate to this forum. At the risk of stooping to the level of the bickering I deplore, I find it a real challenge to respect your opinions on design and type when I find your morals so reprehensible. I know the two have nothing to do with one another which is another reason I wish you’d keep your politics to yourself.
and Thomas - thanks for raising your little voice! I think we need new blood here.
Patty, I personally find what I take to be Hrant’s support of autocracy even more offensive than Dennis’s offensive remarks about gays, as so much poverty and suffering and injustice have come from autocracies, and still do today around the world.
Frankly, I think neither should drag in their political views at every chance, but have a little mercy on the rest of us, who are not going to be swayed, and just find the repetition of these views tiresome and ugly.
However, when they do, they should not be censored. Ideally they should be ignored, but I admit that too often I’ve been unable to resist the temptation to respond to Hrant in particular. (Dennis is new, and I’ve been able to resist—so far!)
With the enlightenment of your comments, I will now just try to respond ’please leave your ugly politics outside the discussion’, and leave it at that. Perhaps a hint like that now and then from a moderator might reduce the serial political ax grinding, but I don’t think it should be censored.
Personal attacks, however, should be censored, because they are directly destructive of good discussion. Both Dennis’s and Hrant’s politics are offensive to me, but only when they turn personal should they be censored, in my view.
You make a good distinction, it’s true, between ugly politics and personal attacks.
There have been some interesting political discussions apropos of nothing much on this forum including the rabbinical back and forth about the ethics of sharing fonts. I just think more sensitivity and civility in general is in order here.
And if a valubale contributor decides that the best way to ignore such comments is to leave Typophile, is that acceptable? I think not. What say ye?
How many people have we lost as an online community because of this? I know of one, personally.
For the record, I find apologism of fascism offensive - so much of the troubles of the world today come from such attitudes. It’s one of the few disgusting things on Typophile to me. I also wish that people didn’t take every opportunity to slip in their religion into discussions; that’s also offensive to me, although less so.
If all this seems strange, it just goes to show: we each find different things offensive, and there are demographic lines that can be drawn in this. Do we want to formally cast Typophile as being the tool and mouthpiece of a certain demographic?
Even with all the serious, fundamental things I find wrong with some members, it
would be unintelligent, unwise and dishonoroble for me to ask for their censure.
—
> the rest of us, who are not going to be swayed
You can’t claim to know such a disheartening thing.
In fact I know for sure that you’re wrong.
—
If you start censoring -I mean the way I think William et
alia want to- then you will kill Typophile. I guarantee it.
While my last comment came explicitly from me as a moderator, what follows is just my personal opinion…
Ideally they should be ignored
I think that, because too many personal insults have gone ignored recently, certain individuals may have left.
It is one thing for obscenity to be rebutted and put in its place. But when it sits uncommented upon, those directly affected are actually insulted twice… first by the insultor, and second by those who didn’t step in to stop the insulting.
alright, now we’re slipping into the problems we’re just discussing. please don’t attach politics to individuals. Hrat, William, reel it in. If you have a problem with autocracy, say so. If you have a problem with apologism of facism offensive, say so. But don’t pin these ideas to people. If you have a problem with homosexuality, say you don’t agree with the practice, but don’t make slurs against those who are homosexuals. This is what i find offensive: when politics become personal attacks on people or groups of people. these, i think, should be censored. am i right or am i wrong in this line of thinking?
Well, I don’t think that they should be censored. I think that they should be rebutted. The problem is that they are often not, so others might get the impression that we are going along with the slur-slinging. Which, if we don’t say anything, we sort of are :-/
>And if a valubale contributor decides that the best way to ignore such comments is to leave Typophile, is that acceptable? I think not. What say ye?
Paul, that is a bitter pill, particularly because I agree about the offensiveness of the comments and the value of the contributor. But frankly I don’t think you can control who is offended by what kind of statement and decides not to participate. And it is not, I think, a sufficient reason to censor political opinions.
First, politics does sometimes get mixed up with movements in type design and typography, so politics and type can’t be completely segregated. Second, I think it is an important principle not to censor political views we personally find offensive—including Hrant’s and Dennis’s (and mine or yours for that matter).
I do think it is a reason to post on your guidelines:
“This forum is not a forum for political proselytizing; please grind politicals axes elsewhere and focus on type and typography.”
What bothers me is not the occasional whacky or ugly view, but the tiresome grind, grind, grind.
Dennis - the “latin” world you’re looking for is homophobia
Just to clarify, I was just being silly (I was tired from traveling), and if you read my post you’ll see the word I wanted was the equivelant word for “the fear of men who act childish”.
I’ll bet whatever it is would sound funny.
Anyway, the title of this thread has nothing to do with type, so just like the Kung-Foo fighting reference, I was just having some fun.
Prehaps you could take this a bit more to heart.
Huh? Again I was having some fun with words (I can’t tolerate intolerance...get it?). I am pretty tolerent, so I haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Lighten up dude.
And btw, I not only *tolerate* all you libs, I actually like most of you.
; )
>If you start censoring -I mean the way William and his
ilk want to- then you will kill Typophile.
Hrant, if you are reading my posts you will see that I do not advocate censoring your political views.
In response to Paul’s suggesion, I have revised my post above to read “what I take to be Hrant’s advocacy of autocracy” instead of “Hrant’s advocacy of autrocacy.” Though I note that Hrant did not object to that formulation. I would appreciate if you would also say “what I take to be William’s apology for Fascism.” You know very well that by my lights I am a passionate opponent of Fascism.
If you start censoring...then you will kill Typophile. I guarantee it.
Okay, i don’t really advocate censoring, but we need to figure out something that will work. As it is, I feel that Typophile IS dying a slow death with all this bitterness being slung about freely. That’s why i’m so anxious as a moderator to find some sort of protocol that will work for creating a pleasant experience for everyone. i guess we need to agree on a couple things:
1) what is/isn’t appropriate for typophile?
2) what actions should be taken when content that is inappropriate is posted?
This all feels like a rehash of Forum Decorum, but obviously, those lessons didn’t stick...
I have found that politics and religion are things that have wildly opposing, and sometimes irreconcilable views, and if I was a moderator, I would be firm about keeping those out of here. Hopefully the moderator would be even-handed, and not allow a dig at something he agrees with to sit there unchallenged.
It wouldn’t be censorship as much as an out-of-bounds for this forum.
If you can remove a link to a questionable font site, which is censorship of a type I understand, why not material that can cause hard feelings? I guess it would require skills in defusing a situation while keeping it upbeat, and not taking sides, but reinforcing the positive direction for the discussion.
>Well, I don’t think that they should be censored. I think that they should be rebutted. The problem is that they are often not, so others might get the impression that we are going along with the slur-slinging. Which, if we don’t say anything, we sort of are :-/
Dan, you make a really good point, which highlights the dilemma of those who are offended by a personal attack on an individual, or, as Paul notes, a group. (Note, Paul, it isn’t offensive in itself to ascribe political views to a person—eg to call someone a democrat if they say they are.)
The dilemma is that if they respond, they really risk being dragged into a mud-slinging match. If they don’t respond, they may be encouraging it, as Dan says. This is why only a moderator can really solve the problem by intervening and cutting out the personal attack on an individual or censuring and warning on the group attack.
The individual can perhaps best respond: cut out the personal attacks, this is not acceptable on Typophile. But it is way better if a moderator does it.
If you’re a moderator, you have the right to edit, delete, etc. posts that contain comments that are slanderous, or demeaning to any group or individual. If someone doesn’t like it they can start their own forum. I think in certain cases it may be the only way to keep this place on the right track. So Paul, go for it. On a personal note, I used to visit a certain graphic design blog daily, but had to stop due to all the Christian/conservative bashing that was going on. One of the things I have always loved about this form is the fact that, for the most part, religion and politics have been kept out. There are plenty of things we could all disagree about, but the reason we’re here is what we agree on, a love of type and typography. I’m here to learn, and have learned a lot, so thanks.
Dennis, if a bunch of people—including me—find your posting on homosexuals not funny and offensive, then I suggest you seriously try to figure out what they find offensive, and not dismiss their concerns.
If we have good will here, misunderstandings can be cleared up pretty quickly. But it does take a desire to clear them up.
ps. Chris Keegan’s phrase “demeaning to any group or individual” is great. That’s exactly what should be in the guidelines, and should be in a notice to individuals who post such stuff.
If something were to be removed, it would then give an indication of how much is too far. It is good for people to know what the limits are. Even though we know the speed limit is 65, most people will go with the speed they think they can get away with. If they never get a ticket at 70, they will probably start pushing that limit too.
Moderators, would you consider having two General Discussions fora? At the moment Typophile discussion is divided up according to different kinds of topic; there’s value in their also reflecting, to a pragmatically limited extent, different premises for discussion.
Dennis, if a bunch of people—including me—find your posting on homosexuals not funny
I didn’t realize there was a slur hidden in my setup, so I have rewritten it as follows:
************
I don’t know Latin so I can’t come up with the phobia name for people who don’t like “men who are acting like children”, but if tolerance is what is being preached, why not tolerance for men who act childish?
************
Keeping in mind it was just tongue-in-cheek, not serious...
George, I don’t think this is necessary. Personally, I think it is fine for someone to post start a thread which is explicitly political, such as the one Hector did (I hope I remember right) on the immigration issue.
Again, the real problem is not political discussion but rather demeaning remarks about individuals and groups.
Personally, I think it is fine for someone to post start a threat which is explicitly political, such as the one Hector did (I hope I remember right) on the immigration issue.
I stand by my view that politics should be avoided. People feel too strongly...feelings get hurt...has nothing to do with fonts...scares away newcomers that could be new blood.
If there was an “Anything Goes” discussion section, it could have a warning. then it would be like attending the Colosseum to watch the slaughter.
Could we create a “Boxing Ring” Forum? That way, anyone who likes this sort of reciprocal podiatric mutual urination can go there and relieve themselves on each other. This would leave the rest of us, who are sick of it, to discuss and even debate issues of typography without fear that a thread would be hijacked and killed by a piszing contest.
This would also create a place to move posts that stray out of the realm of substantive discussion. What I mean is, instead of censorship and removal of a post, it could be moved to the “Boxing Ring” where the combatants, if they so desired, could go and continue their pugilistic tirades. This would be then the online version of a parent saying to a child, “Go to your room and come back when you are ready to behave with respect for others.”
Hrant, I think your weakest arguements are political. They don’t seem to hold any sort of water whatever. I wait to be enlightened. I find Stephen Fry to be the most thoughful as of last week. I’ll send you a link if you want. (Of course your ideas about type are altogether different. Long may you continue to think!)
As far as rants & fights & insults. I have to agree that keeping it within core topic seems best to me in general. But we are going to stray outside and for good reason. Type is connected to world. Which is great or type would be irrelevant. Which it isn’t ( or we don’t think so or we wouldn’t be here).
As far as Patty’s concerns. Yes Patty... the water is dirtier on typophile that would be ideal - BUT - don’t be silly & let that put you off. It’s still by far the best place to be if you are thinking about type or want to learn more from your type brother & sisters.
And my thanks to everybody here for making it that kind of place.
I have been in Toronto & Buffalo NY ( Montreal now ) meeting really wonderful type people - something that I doubt would have happened without Typophile.
And I don’t cotton to the idea of censorship. Rebuke from your peers seems like the right thing; or that tool so little employed - ignoring the offender. Impefect they may be, but being an adult requires patience. And lots of it.
I am happy you agree with me about the “ring idea”.
What I see is that we all agree that there is a “problem”. We seem to agree that we don’t like censorship. Some of us agree that, or at least Chris does about the “ring” idea. This should make everyone happy. Although still, as in a boxing match, “rules of engagement should still apply. For instance, “no hitting below the belt”.
Just to be clear on where I do advocate censorship. Slander of individuals, and especially statements as to their competence in their fields, should not be allowed to stand in the Typophile record. Aside from being illegal, they are harmful to a person’s reputation and ability to make an income. This kind of stuff should be censored in my view, and is rightly self-censored by a lot of editors.
> If you have a problem with ...
> But don’t pin these ideas to people.
Paul, that’s pretty elegant - I hadn’t thought of it.
Although insinuation can’t be totally avoided, I think
this might strike a great balance. (I’ve edited my post.)
> I have revised my post above to read “what I
> take to be Hrant’s advocacy of autocracy”
I’m pretty sure Paul wanted the “Hrant” (and my “William”, which is now
gone) out of there. But I don’t think he should try to force you to remove it.
> Though I note that Hrant did not object to that formulation.
I think there’s a limit to that line of logic.
Anybody reading something like that is a factor.
Also, William: You should class religion with politics. Can you handle that?
> I think it is fine for someone to post start a thread which is explicitly political
While I think that is clearly one thing that must not be encouraged.
Same with religion.
> I feel that Typophile IS dying a slow death
I don’t think so, and I think to some extent you’re over-reacting. That one person shouldn’t have left (as I told him). Also, you should assume that there were more reasons than just the Typophile insult that he left. I’m basing these opinions on 8+ years of mixing it up bigtime in online type discussion fora.
If there is any real ill health, it’s in the area of [lack of] type crits.
I’d worry more about how to fix that.
> piszing
I know you like eszets, but come on. ;-)
BTW, the boxing ring idea can’t work, because it’s not all just about venting.
ideally, this is the perfect solution. perhaps it’s my place as moderator simply to remind others when to bite theirs. by the same token, feel free to let me know when i need to bite mine. thank you hrant & william for editing your posts, this gives me hope for future incidents.
Typophile is a form of publishing. Censorship in automatic in that lawsuits are possible.
A forum however has the advantage that one is able to “somewhat counter attacks directly”, which I suspect would limit some liability. In fact leagally it is one’s obligation to limit liability which means helping the person who is speaking against you.
Legally speaking, determination of damages is always the question.
Slander is somewhat more insideous at times, it often happens behind ones back, not to mention harder to prove, as it is “heresay” evidence only.
I am against censorship. It is the price of freedom. That does not mean I agree with what people say, or how they say it. In that sense, I do not tolerate, intolerance.
There are so many strong people and ideas here. At the risk of sounding simple, sometimes I try to contribute in proportion to what I take. Maybe a post in type ID or critique for every post elsewhere could be a way of creating a wider focus.
I’m not saying that many people here don’t already do that.
I am against censorship. It is the price of freedom.
In my mind, censorship is when just one side of an argument is excluded to promote the other side. This is essentially what is really feared by most people, I think.
But in a sense, we continually censor all kinds of things in life by rules or penalties to protect some environment. Like censoring speeding in residential areas.
Please keep in mind, most people who stick around any online forum over time have fairly thick skin. But many are scared away, or at least refrain from participating because they fear some unpleasant attack.
Often things are said online that wouldn’t be said face-to-face. And I think that most of us could sit down in a restaurant and have a good time in person. I don’t think there is anything wrong in cultivating a family atmosphere in a place meant for growth and development in an artistic pursuit.
As fonts relate to communication, I think discussion of all kinds of things may apply, but there is nothing wrong in making a place where the fallout from the potentially explosive topics be contained.
That is the most admiral method of censorship. More often that I wish to admit I wish I could “suck words” back into my lungs.
Best to think first.
I have another suggestion. You have “Preview comment”, “Post Comment”. Maybe after you hit the post comment you could have a warning come up that reads, are you sure you want to say that, “Cancel”, “Continue” options.
You’re right, my mistake. It is precisely because stuff can stay around a long time that malicious stuff against individuals should be cut out of the record. I don’t think and certainly hope that no lawsuits will ever happen because of a Typophile discussion. But the principle of not letting injurious stuff stay in the public record is a good one anyway, in my view.
>William: You should class religion with politics. Can you handle that?
Sure, they should be treated the same. Tiresome axe-grinding should be warned against by moderators, and name-calling stopped. But discussion on both should be allowed when relevant.
Incidentally, it is months since I have mentioned religion on Typophile, I think, and I don’t accept your characterization that I drag it in constantly. I just yesterday had an interesting dialogue on the ID board with a fellow who is interested in what Jewish law and ethics has to say about protection of intellectual property rights, in particular fonts. I think it was a perfectly appropriate discussion for Typophile.
Like in anything else, some people just don’t have what it takes.
Making good fonts is no guarantee of any other attribute, really.
It’s sad, but that’s the way it is. On the other hand, care for the
greater good and plain old graciousness leave room for some
accomodation of those who need the help.
“They make a wilderness and call it peace.” – Tacitus
I think censorship, apart from being a burden on moderators, who like the rest of us have family and business to take care of, would reduce the joys of Typophile and create more problems and fewer answers.
Tim
“When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” - C.S. Lewis “When you have found your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall.” - C. S Lewis
It is natural to get upset about gross affronts to one’s sensibilities, perceived insults, ridicule of one’s often hard-won choices, lack of understanding for or sympathy with one’s motivations; it is unreasonable to expect they won’t be addressed; it would be nice if it was enough just to say: ’I am bothered by this’ or ’so be it’; I am at a loss about what to do if that isn’t enough; it is important to remain focussed: to not let them get in the way.
Regardless of the “growth” or “health” this arguing builds, I feel like its part of the reason why I stopped visiting this site so frequently in the first place. I’m a young designer, and I feel like some of the “one-up-manship” around here gets out of hand sometimes.
So lets give the kids like me something to look forward to. Rather than the life of a negative, holier-than-thou attitude that seems to plague these boards.
This is a good opportunity to tell a story, a true story
of high relevance here. But I’ll try to keep it short.
—
Some years ago I was accused -as I periodically am, although that time it was quite incisive and eloquent- of causing valuable contributors to stay away from public discussion, in that case involving the venerable (and now apparently doddering) Typo-L. Due partly* to that, I decided to unsubscribe, and urged people to tell those who were staying away that the coast is clear. But they did not come. Also, nobody left because I did AFAIK. For a few months some people urged me to come back (and originaly I was actually planning to do that if those who were allegedly staying away never showed up) but I figured it was actually a good thing: it was a fruitful social experiment, I proved a point, and now I waste less time online! :-/
* Paul: partly. There were other reasons (that no single person can be blamed for).
—
In the end, it’s not the individuals who make/break a society, it’s the mindframe.
Actually, I haven’t been in Cincy for over two months. I moved back to Washington, DC and now work in Maryland.
I guess I’m both a little amused and a little disappointed that a thread started to address fighting, has contained nearly EXACTLY the same level of bickering that the post was intended to address. While it makes complete sense that certain topics will spawn other issues (religion, ethics, etc.). Discussing political ideologies often seem to get us nowhere.
Unfortunately, by picking whatever a person’s chosen form of ethics (philospher’s, religion, the U.S. Constitution) a declaration has already been made as to “this is best.” Then this gets into how many books, so and so has read on the subject, how Lenin ultimately paved the way for Stalin, and a bunch of other things that prove just who is intellectually superior to the other.
The point is, we’re all adults here and we know what’s right and wrong...And I for second am not foolish enough to believe that before we all hit the “Post comment” button that we’re not in some way aware that what was typed could be deemed offensive. Our mothers shouldn’t have to slap our hands anymore to let us know the stove is hot.
On the other hand, care for the greater good and plain old graciousness leave room for some accomodation of those who need the help.
Yes.
As far as moderation goes, I have seen good (sometimes the best) people flee a forum because they had better things to do than filter out hogwash. So I am for anything that promotes a friendly overall atmosphere.
Every forum has rules about civility and relevance. Civility means mutual respect regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, gender and, in my view, sexual orientation. Relevance means relevance to the subject matter of the forum. While debates about artistic and design ideology are in my view relevant to typography, debates about political policy that have nothing to do with typography, such as the Iraq war or local concerns about immigration, are not. Some fora have an off-topic sub-forum where people can pursue political issues if they desire. Personally, I’m not keen on this, but it does provide an outlet for those who can’t make it to Hyde Park.
The rules of a forum, regardless of whether they have been created by the owner of the site or by consensus of the participants, need to be enforced if the forum is going to flourish. It seems to me that censorship is the wrong word to describe doing what is necessary to ensure adherence to the rules.
My experience is that most people are prepared to adhere. However, there are people who simply won’t unless they are reined in. Also, many people, if not most, have their “moments”. The question is, how are the rules going to be enforced in such instances?
I believe that the existence of a moderator, who is prepared to step in, is essential. Self-control does not work when self-control has broken down.
My belief is based on long-term experience with three discussion groups that have minimal problems with the kinds of issues discussed in this thread. The common denominator of these groups is the existence of a moderator (in one case two moderators) who is active in the discussions, who is prepared to step in when things start to get out of hand, who has a talent for doing so in a diplomatic manner and who has the respect of the participants. In each case, the moderator is prepared, when he or she deems it appropriate, to delete a post or lock a thread. The result is that everybody understands the rules, and eggregious behaviour, together with the need to step in, is relatively rare. People who prefer anarchy, or who don’t like the rules, are at liberty to start their own forum.
A successful discussion group, like any meeting, requires a hands-on chair/moderator. I realize that this places a burden on moderators that they may not want to bear. To be blunt, that is beside the point. Successful discussion groups must have a person or persons who have both the time and the inclination to play this role.
The alternative is the same as what happens at a rudderless meeting. A small group of people highjack the meeting, the discussion deteriorates (and frequently becomes highly repetitive), and everyone else exits via the nearest door.
Some of the participants in this thread have suggested that the solution is to ignore individuals or posts that don’t play by the rules. I have tried that on this forum. As someone else pointed out, it doesn’t work. Without getting into detail about why, what happens is that the thread becomes impossible to follow.
Redge, I agree with some of what you say, but one thing I must counter is your desire to separate politics and type. As Eben I think it was said, that’s not possible; I would add that it’s not even desirable. For example, there are facets to the Iraq war (such as the looting of their museum by what many people believe were western entities) that are quite strongly cultural, and hence in some way (sometimes in quite a strong way) related to type. Fonts are not just pretty shapes. My Nour & Patria system for one was motivated directly by politics.
> I have tried that on this forum.
> As someone else pointed out, it doesn’t work.
Maybe you haven’t tried hard enough? Or you’re not capable of it?
Honestly I’m not trying to strike you down here - each of us is
good and bad at different things - and our differences should be
not only tolerated, but celebrated. But my point is, the fact that
it failed for you doesn’t mean it must be bad. In fact as some others
have attested, for them it works fine. And it could still work for you.
People, People, brothers and sisters, why are we fighting? Why are we fighting? We don’t want to fight. Everybody just cool out. C’mon we can get it together. Everybody sit down. Just sit down.
Two of the discussion groups to which I referred are for people who make motion pictures. One of those groups is specifically for people who make documentary films. Many documentary filmmakers express their political and social views in their work. Recently, one of the participants won an important award for a film that he made about Iraq. The discussion within the group was about his film as a film, including the views that it expressed. Despite the fact that the people in the group come from the right, the centre and the left, he was not attacked or mocked for his views, and the discussion did not degenerate into a debate about the war generally.
I don’t have a problem if someone wants to argue that a political ideology is reflected in a particular type face or if someone wants to talk about his or her attempts to embody an ideology in a type face. That is what I was trying to capture, however imperfectly, when I referred to “artistic and design ideology”, concepts that can include, but are broader than, social and political views.
I do have a problem when the discussion becomes principally about the politics or if someone is berrated for having allegedly expressed a particular ideology in his or her work.
On your other point, I can only say that I have found that I cannot follow some of the threads on this forum through selective reading and still make sense of the thread (see the word highjacked in my earlier post). In other words, I am indeed incapable of doing it, and I am not planning to spend time trying to acquire the skill.
If you truly believe that, I am truly sorry for you. It must be painful going through life so scarred by hatered that you come to that belief. I hope you can find peace within yourself.
If you want to feel sorry for something, feel sorry for my people.
Most of the time I’m willing to chalk your crypticness up to you being part of some secret 17th level font Illuminati, but this one intrigues me: “my people”?
Do you mean the Armenians? If so, I am unaware of their plight. Something to do with Iran?
I have been part of this site for a long time, since the new typophile site, however my old handle no longer worked for some reason. Before a short while ago, i did not post, I only lurked in the background. Now, as I have become somewhat of a participant, I do think that personal opinions are relevant to any discussion; especially one that hits upon a sore spot within the creative community as a whole.
Additionally, I do tend to not post much here, as I have not been [accepted] per say; not to mention that in real life I am a difficult person to get along with. Most find me abrasive, caustic, and too much of a realist; so they chose to not speak with me. However, there are those that come and speak with me specifically for these traits. I won’t martyr myself here, as I am likely flawed in more ways than most others, but my recent attitude cannot be excused. Furthermore, I do not feel that it should need to be, as the responses I posted, and edited, were pertinent to the discussion topic, and merely clarified my position on a specific topic. If they were interpreted as anything else, than i beg you to forgive this, as I may have not worded them in a clear and concise manner.
More often than not, especially in the thread that I am referencing above, I find that there is a lot of “elitists” here, and that the banter is extremely stilted; often times to the point that it is above my comprehension. If there is one thing that bothers me most about this collective, it would be this characteristic style of cryptically concealing information inside a verbose series of statements that are understood by few, however, viewed by many. I wish I were of the caliber of writer, and reader to be able to comprehend a lot the material here, but it seems that I just don’t measure up. A majority of the content, aside from any critique or technical discussion, is where I find myself aloof amongst the moderators and other prolific members.
Recently, I have tried to be a more compliant member, and help others with questions they have posted, as most have acted kindly to me in the past. Looking ahead, I wish to continue doing so, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinions when they are relative to a threads content. Communication is nothing more than the expression of ideas and opinions, even that which is stated as factual knowledge was and is based on a series of subjective observations of this world. Moderating the content of this forum, and the statements of its members is a little too Orwellian for me to tolerate, and I would hope that things would never come down to this. I, and everyone else, are responsible for what we communicate, whether it is understood partially, entirely, or not at all.
Few choices are left to me, as the mood of typophile either settles or continues to become irritated; for any disturbance that can be solely attributed to my doing was unintentional.
About 25-35 years ago, a well-known writer for The New Yorker published a book about his discovery of his Armenian heritage and his investigation of the genocide.
I read the book a few years ago (it had a significant impact on me and was very well-written), but I can’t remember the name of the writer and I can’t readily find it through google, amazon, etc. I got it at a second-hand bookstore, and lost my copy during a move. There is a high probability that it is out of print.
This has been bugging me for the last week, entirely your fault. Do you happen to know the name of the writer or the name of the book?
One other question. My father, who is a writer, introduced me as a kid to Saroyan senior. Is he still read in the Armenian community, or is he considered too sentimental/ passe (sorry, but I don’t know how to do accents on this site)?
—-Share ideas and thoughts that enlighten, spark new ideas, or deeper thought
—-Ask Questions with as much detail as possible so those who can help are providing the best answers and help.
—-Put the comments into an imaginary sorting box and look at them when you can be objective. Value and implement the good. Toss out the bad.
—-If a response or statement appears to be a personal attack- rather than a critique—- let it land at your feet... then step forward, crushing the words quietly beneath your feet, as you respond with dignity and grace.
—-If boredom, loneliness or depression is the motivator for meanness, nasty attacks, and constant criticism...You are considered a message baord troll...and you need therapy, not this forum.
One final question:
If your words and deeds were compared to typeface and fonts—- what typeface or font fits you?
—-and is that ’type face’ / font how you want to present your ’face’ to the world?
If not, make a change.
*** gina jane ***
graphic design, fine artist,
site owner of DAISIE,LLC
Beirut during Hrant’s childhood was a scary thought.
I have seen children of war in Viet Nam in 1968. They never had a childhood. They could never feel that their parents could keep them safe. They never could feel they had a future beyond the moment. Trying to find some semblance of order and normalcy is impossible for an adult—for a child it is devastating. When horror becomes the norm for a child, peace within one’s self is not possible. The scars never leave, the anxiety never fades. Cheating death another day becomes a pastime but buries its seed deep to bloom later in uncontrolled ways.
Your post, if it is directed at Hrant, as it appears to be, is exactly the kind of post that the moderators should come down on.
If this is what this site tolerates, I’m not long for it.
If I want to spend my time on a newsnet newsgroup, I know where to find one.
Your previous expression of pity was bad enough, but you have now gone way over the line.
There really is a point where the people who run this forum have to decide whether they are running a professional operation or the equivalent of a discussion between 18 year olds in a pub who have had too much to drink.
Between bizarre attempts to turn Patty Fabricant’s question into a debate about Aristotle, and Chris’s (and others’) fundamentally astounding remarks, I think that I am in a very unpleasant version of Wonderland or, to use the current vernacular, a really bad version of The Matrix.
From my point of view, this is a bad scene, and that is an understatement.
Not that I matter. I have particular reasons for following this site at the moment, and I can do it temporarily, and then drop out.
You know what really surprises me? There are some really interesting topics outstanding, and they are being ignored.
No, I am in a position to say what I think, and I am going to do so.
Chris’s last couple of posts leave me stunned, and I can’t believe that a legitimate forum would let them stand.
Secondly, the attempts to turn Patty’s complaint about lack of civility into an intellectual debate about Greek philosophers is one of the most bizarre things that I have ever witnessed.
This business about Aristotle makes about as much sense as Hrant’s comments, in an earlier thread, about what he perceives to be my Anglo background.
I believe that this debate would make great fodder for a skit for Monty Python or Kids in the Hall (or to be more contemporary, Ricky Gervais, preferably paired with Scott Thompson, just to amuse the anti-gay participants).
Whether the people who run this site want outsiders like myself, who may stick around if they think that they are dealing with adults, to do so, is entirely up to them.
Seems someone else feels the same way I do. My position is one of interest, and I to participate because I am interested. Nothing more needs to be said, other than that I completely agree with everything redge has said so far.
Chris, your depiction of a “war child” contains a lot of truth - I’m happy to see you’re aware of this stuff. As you might suspect of a war child, I’m not shocked at all. Shocking was seeing a head on a bench in a public park. But of course every war child is different! Although it’s true that I don’t remember feeling like a child after about age 6, and I do have trouble planning for the future, I actually think my parents did fine, and most of all, I don’t remember being afraid (except for a certain 5 minutes where I came quite close to being executed) and I never cried (not even when my uncle was assassinated). I’m not sure why. Maybe I was eased into it, maybe it’s my genes, or maybe I was lucky to start the war at an insensitive age, and got a foothold that way. For example, my brother, who is 4.5 years older, is a lot like me in this way (although he’s a gentler soul) but my sister, who is 8.5 years older, cried a lot. When the lighted anti-aircraft bullets would streak up at nights, she’d hide in her room - my brother and I went to the balcony.
Yes, it’s quite strange living in a society that seems at peace. But part of the reason it’s strange is because I think most people around me are peons who don’t realize that there never is total peace - and that’s actually a good thing. It’s not healthy living a society secluded from the “real world” outside your borders. It causes you to adore your SUV, to vote for war criminals for president, to not see that the Founding Fathers were just good businessmen, etc. I don’t think these people are “normal”, and I don’t think I’m “abnormal”. War (conflict) is in all of us, it’s in every aspect of life. I remember telling a group of Dutchies during a dinner after a type conference about my war-time upbringing. Thomas Milo (who has served as a UN peacekeeper in Lebanon) was the only one who “got it”, smiling sadly - there is a great sadness to missing war.* Evert Bloemsma couldn’t relate, but his powerful intellect and wisdom allowed him to listen with fascination, and learn things from the discussion. Then there was this young lady whose jaw dropped open and stayed that way, and at one point exclaimed: “All I’ve seen is neat rows of tulips!” Was I supposed to feel envy? I felt pity. Remembering my favorite Heraclitus quote, it makes me feel that she’s had only one parent.
* BTW, I highly recommend the book “The Adventurist”.
I related to that author like I’ve never related to
almost anybody in my life - certainly no author.
Life is sort of a long anti-climax, after surviving a war. Once in a blue moon it actually makes me cry, but most of the time it makes me very proud. I think it’s what’s given me my ability to doubt convention, to persevere, to be tolerant, and to see aspects of life that I’m sure must be invisible to the peons. And what makes me most proud is that some years ago I realized all this, and have come to terms with it, have learned to embrace the dark half of life (which everybody has, just to different degrees). This makes me feel like I can generally be happy living with this aspect of my being, or at least know its effects on me, and what types of things can make me happy.
But most of all: I’m not just a war child, I’m Armenian. I am -quite literally- the grandchild of the unrecognized genocide. This you are unlikely to ever fathom. Maybe for that I am envious of you.
—
As for whether Chris is going too far, as far as I’m concerned, no.
But he does go too far when he (or his friend) complains about posts
like this that I make. Really Chris, that’s not fair. And I think it’s
a manifestation of the “darkness” you have in you yourself too.
——
You guys know what’s really interesting? We seem to make fonts
based on beliefs like this. It seems to me that the difference
between thinking that war is Evil and that everything must be
in balance is parallel to the difference between display fonts
and text fonts; the difference between
24.May.2006 10.13pm
One reason is we’re passionate about type.
Another is that the impersonality of written communication
causes our repressed negativism to be channeled through it.
My hope is that I -and others- can assimilate and leverage
whatever is thrown around, instead of adopting unnatural
behavior... whatever the hell that means.
And now I really need to get horizontal...
hhp
24.May.2006 11.46pm
Patty: Testosterone? I dunno. I used to enjoy a good fight (mental or physical) but I also didn’t like hurting people, so I avoided them except when it seemed important. Now that I’m getting to be middle aged, enjoying them - not so much.
Insert some platitude here like “people are different.”
T
25.May.2006 1.08am
I guess its just that time of the year again.
Spring becoming summer. Men becoming kids, again. :)
Dav
25.May.2006 4.19am
Saying it was a case of men turning to kids again is insinuating that there is ever far to go in that regards.
; )
25.May.2006 4.26am
Btw (formlos), I just surfed into Neonua. Very nice addition to the monocase concept.
25.May.2006 5.21am
* Yea, Some of you may have noticed by now, that ’English’ is not my native language. :)
Dav
25.May.2006 5.47am
Did you spill my pint?
25.May.2006 10.18am
Who’s fighting, you @#&@$! #$#&#@#@ %$#@%^&& ?!?!
25.May.2006 10.57am
I don’t think there is a problem with discourse and dialogue which promotes healthy exchange of differing ideas. The problem is that some people revert to personal attacks rather than just presenting more evidence supporting their own opinion. The evidence is what convinces and what spreads knowledge to others. The personal attacks just kill whatever respect people might have had for the attacker and don’t win supporters of that person’s point of view. Opinions and passions are fine but when they escalate to insults, nobody wins or learns.
ChrisL
25.May.2006 11.04am
But the people, the persons, are the entire context of it all. Remove that, and
you’re left with a formal, clinical illusion - an irrelevant posturing/venting.
hhp
25.May.2006 11.05am
what chris said.
also, if someone begins making personal attacks or hateful remarks in general against anyone/any group, please ask them to stop and edit their own posting. if these kinds of remarks continue, please contact a moderator.
25.May.2006 11.09am
It’s our lack of real life... life jajajaja
Héctor
25.May.2006 11.21am
But Héctor, I thought you had a life :-)
ChrisL
25.May.2006 11.23am
Lord knows it doesn’t make me want to participate! I can imagine it might scare off newbies too. I don’t see why the conversation can’t remain civil. This is a forum about type and design, not a group therapy session.
25.May.2006 11.43am
It’s a free group therapy session. ;^)
Typoholics Anonymous in Room 101
Recovering typoholics tell harrowing tales of how type ruined their lives. How their wives accused them of seeing women like Caecilia, Tiffany and Mrs Eaves from down the road or whose husbands accused them of whoring about with the likes of Arnold Boeklin and the Duc de Berry.
Typophile Rehabilitation in Room 102
The state has released these typophiles after progressively worsening and repeated type offences in the hope that some heavy handed group therapy will sort them out. Each one’s story similar to the next. How it all started with a harmless affair with a small Dolly.
25.May.2006 12.09pm
I don’t see why the conversation can’t remain civil.
You haven’t been targeted by Hrant.
25.May.2006 12.25pm
It’s not you, it’s your ideas (otherwise I would never
say anything nice about you - which I do, as warranted).
But I would never ask you to not have them, or even not
express them, and I certainly wouldn’t ask a moderator
to censure you. But everybody is different, and if some-
body feels the need to do those things I need to tolerate
that (which is not the same thing as shutting up about it).
This is why I put my faith in the people who manage this
great place, as opposed to its individual participants.
Remember: monarchist. :-)
hhp
25.May.2006 12.28pm
there’s something children are being taught, at least here in switzerland: a fight always gets started by two people, not by one alone.
25.May.2006 12.31pm
I reiterate, why go below the belt? Everyone is entitled to their ideas, and to agree or disagree with others ideas. But the insults shouldn’t have to get personal. Y’all are sounding like rightwing radio pundits.
In other words, what chris said.
25.May.2006 12.39pm
Don’t know Patty, I guess some enjoy it, I must confess I have actually enjoyed a couple of rants, and I know it only makes it worse, so let’s try to avoid them.
Héctor
25.May.2006 12.47pm
25.May.2006 1.03pm
>You haven’t been targeted by Hrant
I have. The antidote to rage is the power of compassion and acceptance of the dignity of all, including Hrant—who deserves to be treated with respect just as do you and I.
I don’t know how best to foster that spirit of compassion in Typophile discussions, but I do know that returning insults is not going to help. The best way to moderate discussions is by a moderator, but these are voluntary and have limited time.
25.May.2006 1.29pm
Thanks for posting this Patty. While I’m no saint, I’ve been increasingly discouraged by the constant bickering and pissing contests I’ve been seeing lately. There’s some real knowledge on this site, its just a shame to see the egos constantly get in the way. I’ve also noticed that people who used to contribute to this site more frequently aren’t around as often anymore as well. Could there be a connection? As of now, I’m a recovering typoholic.
25.May.2006 1.34pm
I haven’t been around that much lately, but not just because of that reason. Somehow the atmosphere has changed a bit. It’s a pitty. Before there was more positive discussion and helping. I don’t find that that much anymore these days.
I would love to be more on Typophile, so I will stay tuned.
®
www.characters.nl { Dutch typography to express yourself }
25.May.2006 1.38pm
Hi Terry...
nice to see your “blue face” again ;-)
Notice that I’ve gone “faceless” myself in my avatar.
As for the debate tactics of some of the posts, it just makes it a little harder to glean the wisdom within threads while having to wade through the “organic fertilizer”.
25.May.2006 1.42pm
You have a point Terry I don’t enjoy the negative comments and would rather visit another site. The one thing I try to do is find things to lighten the mood of people here.
25.May.2006 1.46pm
Typophile embodies three crafts - type design, graphic design and typography - and treats two subjects - text type and display type. Given this range, and to a lesser extent the cultural and philosophical range of the people using the site, there’s a lot of fundamental disagreement.
There are two possible responses for the moderators. The liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferences, not to be arbitrated between from above. The Aristotelian response would have it that all crafts have inherent in them a set of virtues which must be agreed upon for them to be virtues at all; that disputes concerning them should therefore normally be arbitrated as if the differing opinions held were either true or false; that crafts should be separately embodied where the virtues inherent to them clash, as they clearly do with graphic design and text design; and that in each embodiment, some kind of guild-like hierarchy of authority is required to legitimate arbitration.
Though Typophile has a formally designated ruling class, they’ve taken the liberal path. What follows is disagreement without the possibility of settlement, and this we see endlessly. Typophile is less valuable than it could be for the same reason in miniature that Western government is less valuable than it could be: within its field, it embodies no conception of the good.
Perhaps you didn’t want quite that much detail, Patty :-)
25.May.2006 1.53pm
returning insults is not going to help
It works for me. I feel better to be dishing it out rather than enduring constant “needling”, as you put it. Also, I’ve found that after I bite back, he eases up on me for a while. Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?
I’ve asked him to lay off the personal remarks (for which I am mocked for being a whiny artiste), so have moderators, but he keeps right on. You can talk about this problem in general terms, but it’s rather obvious that the top dog here (200+ posts) sets the tone Patti decries, instigating most of the pissing contests and scaring away those who want to avoid them.
25.May.2006 1.59pm
Keep it about the type, people.
25.May.2006 2.02pm
Nick, I know you don’t expect to be criticized,
and that it hurts, but do try to pay attention
to what others are saying. I am [trying to].
> I feel better
Well, of itself that’s a good reason.
But what makes a given person feel better isn’t necessarily good for his society,
and a responsible “citizen” (which I’m not claiming I am, btw) minds that.
> after I bite back, he eases up on me
I don’t think that’s true, but if it is, that’s my
weakness - I’ll try to have more self-discipline.
I hope that when I ease off (again, from attacking
your ideas, if in the context of you - but not you)
it’s generally because I’m bored.
> 200+ posts
I think there’s an important elaboration due here: most of my posts are very short these days. If you count the number of bytes or something, I’m sure I’m not at the top. Just look at some of those big juicy threads with mega-posts, that I’m not even properly participating in. I need to take a vacation just to catch up with you guys!
Also: I’m sure you agree that I don’t need to post a lot to be offensive
to you. You complain about me even when I’m not on the prolific list.
hhp
25.May.2006 2.03pm
It works for me
Absolutely: let’s not underestimate the satisfaction of replying to aggression with aggression. In a liberal environment, it’s all one’s got. Long term, I really do think there should be two General Discussions fora, one for text and absolute truth, the other for graphic design and cultural difference. Posting in either should entail at least a good tourist’s respect for the local world-view.
25.May.2006 2.04pm
> Keep it about the type, people.
Yes, in spite of everything.
Don’t let somebody’s objectionable delivery distract
you from addressing the content. That’s the type of
thing I tend to mean when I use the term “tolerance”.
—
George, I think your intent is admirable, but that sort of purism is inhuman.
hhp
25.May.2006 2.06pm
Keep it about the type, people.
The problem is that even type’s not just about type.
25.May.2006 2.06pm
>Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?
>it works for me.
Having compassion and being a patsy are two different things. I am not saying that you shouldn’t respond, but I am saying that returning insults doesn’t help.
You say it works for you, but I don’t see the evidence. Hrant has not let up, and as you can see it doesn’t work for the rest of us, who don’t enjoy running across this stuff in otherwise interesting threads.
Just to be clear, even though I disagree with both you and Hrant half the time, I find you always well informed and often quite interesting. I often find Hrant interesting when he is not in a rage.
25.May.2006 2.08pm
everybody was kung fu fighting..
25.May.2006 2.11pm
>liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferrences
George, that is one kind of relativist, soft-headed liberalism, which is unfortunately too common. But a belief in fostering a diversity of views within discussion is a traditional liberal belief that is consistent with strong values and decisions to enforce them. Among these strong values are beliefs in tolerance, civility within discussion, and non-violent ways of settling disputes. These are a part of the great liberal tradition in England and America, and I treasure them.
25.May.2006 2.22pm
i must admit, as a moderator my style has been fairly laissez faire. but since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past, i will be tolerant of shenanigins no longer. if things get out of hand, don’t expect me to stand idlely by.
25.May.2006 2.23pm
Terry,
Good to have you back!
The sun must be shining even in Cincy by now :-)
ChrisL
25.May.2006 2.25pm
> Somehow the atmosphere has changed a bit.
Yes. The biggest victim has been type crits. And I think
the more a person claims expertise and success, the more
he should participate in crits. It’s the Spiderman thing:
“With power comes responsability.”
> since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past
Which is very rare (and was not due to “Mr 200+”, Nick).
hhp
25.May.2006 2.29pm
Hey the South Park characters posting was fun and everyone enjoyed it. It wasn’t about type but types
25.May.2006 2.35pm
Bill, the values you mention are not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good within any practice (except that of governing an irreparably fractious society); they are, as it were, negative rather than positive values (with the exception of civility). You need more than tolerance: you need things to defend.
On the other hand, most people here actually do have a similar enough set of opinions. Where I disagree strongly I end up a contributor to some of the fights, so I doubt I’m a force for good. I’ll post less in future, but Typophile is wonderful, and I’m very grateful for what I’ve learnt from it. Thanks everyone!
25.May.2006 2.48pm
>not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good
First of all the virtue ethics of Aristotle is weak because it is too focused on the person. But this would take us too far afield.
In any case the values I mention do absolutely serve to promote a dynamic society in which there is social improvement and the growth of knowledge. They have done so and will continue to do so. Tolerance is not a negative value because it requires a positive structure to support free exchange of ideas. Settling disputes by non-violent means is a positive value in fostering a whole variety of democratic institutions, including elections and court of law.
25.May.2006 2.51pm
But democracy and intolerance go hand-in-hand.
Typophile is not democratic, and that’s why it works.
Same with China.
hhp
25.May.2006 3.06pm
>democracy and intolerance go hand-in-hand.
Opposite of the truth. While modern democratic societies have had their lapses, dictatorships like Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot etc. etc. have been far more intolerant of minority groups and of criticism of the government and diversity of opinion.
25.May.2006 3.13pm
Bill, I think tolerance can be a negative value while still requiring a positive structure, just as a free market requires enforcement. You’re right to correct me on non-violence, it is indeed a positive value within the context of a law-possessing society, which every society should be. I’m not a democrat myself.
25.May.2006 3.36pm
William, you speak of the surface, while I speak of the depths.
And nevermind that Hitler for one was elected democratically.
And what do you think of Hamas’s election, I wonder? Actually,
no, I don’t wonder.
hhp
25.May.2006 3.43pm
cool it hrant. if you want to debunk ideas, keep to the ideology. don’t attack individuals.
25.May.2006 3.46pm
OK, edited.
hhp
25.May.2006 4.07pm
>Hitler for one was elected democratically
From what I can see, this is a myth. However, I have other more pressing matters, so I won’t continue discussing politics.
25.May.2006 10.19pm
Back to the original topic, (while I haven’t been here for all that long), I think it’s just the natural evolution and ongoing maturity that needs to happen in any online community.
Don’t fight it too hard (the fighting), but try to steer it in the right direction.
25.May.2006 11.08pm
Spring becoming summer. Men becoming kids, again.
Kind of like the old 6th grade put-down when someone says “You’re driving me crazy!”:
“That ain’t a drive, it’s a short putt.”
“Childish Pride Parade” coming soon to a city near you:
I don’t know Latin so I can’t come up with the phobia name for people who don’t like “men who are acting like children”, but if tolerance is what is being preached, why not men who act childish?
You could call this a childish idea, but whatever you say can simply be countered with the accusation that you suffer from the fear of men who act childish (this is where the Latin would come in handy), and your intolerance harkens back to burning witches at the stake, or some other ludicrous red-herring.
And if there is one thing I can’t tolerate, it is people who are intolerant.
Red-herrings: Not just for breakfast anymore.
26.May.2006 12.07am
Moderator’s Comment…
> if men who act effeminate are to be tolerated unconditionally
Dennis, please refrain from any further statements of this nature in the future. Such personal preferences and/or behavior have nothing to do with type design or typography and are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or your arguments.
Many readers of these forums find off-hand statements on personality traits or lifestyles offensive.
>And if there is one thing I can’t tolerate, it is people who are intolerant.
In fact, most people cannot tolerate intolerance. Prehaps you could take this a bit more to heart.
26.May.2006 1.57am
I’m relatively new here, but nevertheless i’m raising my little voice :)
A short personal clash is not a problem for me (i like juice...), but it’s getting very confusing for the other readers, if the personal attacks are neverending and jumping from thread to thread.
Regards Thomas
26.May.2006 5.56am
Dennis - the “latin” world you’re looking for is homophobia and I wholeheartedly second Dan’s comment. You don’t miss a chance to slip that in, and it’s wildly inappropriate to this forum. At the risk of stooping to the level of the bickering I deplore, I find it a real challenge to respect your opinions on design and type when I find your morals so reprehensible. I know the two have nothing to do with one another which is another reason I wish you’d keep your politics to yourself.
and Thomas - thanks for raising your little voice! I think we need new blood here.
26.May.2006 6.24am
Patty, I personally find what I take to be Hrant’s support of autocracy even more offensive than Dennis’s offensive remarks about gays, as so much poverty and suffering and injustice have come from autocracies, and still do today around the world.
Frankly, I think neither should drag in their political views at every chance, but have a little mercy on the rest of us, who are not going to be swayed, and just find the repetition of these views tiresome and ugly.
However, when they do, they should not be censored. Ideally they should be ignored, but I admit that too often I’ve been unable to resist the temptation to respond to Hrant in particular. (Dennis is new, and I’ve been able to resist—so far!)
With the enlightenment of your comments, I will now just try to respond ’please leave your ugly politics outside the discussion’, and leave it at that. Perhaps a hint like that now and then from a moderator might reduce the serial political ax grinding, but I don’t think it should be censored.
Personal attacks, however, should be censored, because they are directly destructive of good discussion. Both Dennis’s and Hrant’s politics are offensive to me, but only when they turn personal should they be censored, in my view.
26.May.2006 6.28am
William -
You make a good distinction, it’s true, between ugly politics and personal attacks.
There have been some interesting political discussions apropos of nothing much on this forum including the rabbinical back and forth about the ethics of sharing fonts. I just think more sensitivity and civility in general is in order here.
26.May.2006 6.33am
Ideally they should be ignored
And if a valubale contributor decides that the best way to ignore such comments is to leave Typophile, is that acceptable? I think not. What say ye?
How many people have we lost as an online community because of this? I know of one, personally.
26.May.2006 6.47am
For the record, I find apologism of fascism offensive - so much of the troubles of the world today come from such attitudes. It’s one of the few disgusting things on Typophile to me. I also wish that people didn’t take every opportunity to slip in their religion into discussions; that’s also offensive to me, although less so.
If all this seems strange, it just goes to show: we each find different things offensive, and there are demographic lines that can be drawn in this. Do we want to formally cast Typophile as being the tool and mouthpiece of a certain demographic?
Even with all the serious, fundamental things I find wrong with some members, it
would be unintelligent, unwise and dishonoroble for me to ask for their censure.
—
> the rest of us, who are not going to be swayed
You can’t claim to know such a disheartening thing.
In fact I know for sure that you’re wrong.
—
If you start censoring -I mean the way I think William et
alia want to- then you will kill Typophile. I guarantee it.
hhp
26.May.2006 6.53am
While my last comment came explicitly from me as a moderator, what follows is just my personal opinion…
Ideally they should be ignored
I think that, because too many personal insults have gone ignored recently, certain individuals may have left.
It is one thing for obscenity to be rebutted and put in its place. But when it sits uncommented upon, those directly affected are actually insulted twice… first by the insultor, and second by those who didn’t step in to stop the insulting.
26.May.2006 6.56am
alright, now we’re slipping into the problems we’re just discussing. please don’t attach politics to individuals. Hrat, William, reel it in. If you have a problem with autocracy, say so. If you have a problem with apologism of facism offensive, say so. But don’t pin these ideas to people. If you have a problem with homosexuality, say you don’t agree with the practice, but don’t make slurs against those who are homosexuals. This is what i find offensive: when politics become personal attacks on people or groups of people. these, i think, should be censored. am i right or am i wrong in this line of thinking?
26.May.2006 7.03am
Well, I don’t think that they should be censored. I think that they should be rebutted. The problem is that they are often not, so others might get the impression that we are going along with the slur-slinging. Which, if we don’t say anything, we sort of are :-/
26.May.2006 7.16am
>And if a valubale contributor decides that the best way to ignore such comments is to leave Typophile, is that acceptable? I think not. What say ye?
Paul, that is a bitter pill, particularly because I agree about the offensiveness of the comments and the value of the contributor. But frankly I don’t think you can control who is offended by what kind of statement and decides not to participate. And it is not, I think, a sufficient reason to censor political opinions.
First, politics does sometimes get mixed up with movements in type design and typography, so politics and type can’t be completely segregated. Second, I think it is an important principle not to censor political views we personally find offensive—including Hrant’s and Dennis’s (and mine or yours for that matter).
I do think it is a reason to post on your guidelines:
“This forum is not a forum for political proselytizing; please grind politicals axes elsewhere and focus on type and typography.”
What bothers me is not the occasional whacky or ugly view, but the tiresome grind, grind, grind.
26.May.2006 7.19am
Let’s face it, typophile is comprised of a “bunch of meanies”
Giampa
26.May.2006 7.20am
It’s a freak magnet!
ƒ
26.May.2006 7.22am
Dennis - the “latin” world you’re looking for is homophobia
Just to clarify, I was just being silly (I was tired from traveling), and if you read my post you’ll see the word I wanted was the equivelant word for “the fear of men who act childish”.
I’ll bet whatever it is would sound funny.
Anyway, the title of this thread has nothing to do with type, so just like the Kung-Foo fighting reference, I was just having some fun.
Prehaps you could take this a bit more to heart.
Huh? Again I was having some fun with words (I can’t tolerate intolerance...get it?). I am pretty tolerent, so I haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Lighten up dude.
And btw, I not only *tolerate* all you libs, I actually like most of you.
; )
26.May.2006 7.23am
Fredo,
I rest my case.
Giampa
26.May.2006 7.24am
>If you start censoring -I mean the way William and his
ilk want to- then you will kill Typophile.
Hrant, if you are reading my posts you will see that I do not advocate censoring your political views.
In response to Paul’s suggesion, I have revised my post above to read “what I take to be Hrant’s advocacy of autocracy” instead of “Hrant’s advocacy of autrocacy.” Though I note that Hrant did not object to that formulation. I would appreciate if you would also say “what I take to be William’s apology for Fascism.” You know very well that by my lights I am a passionate opponent of Fascism.
26.May.2006 7.26am
If you start censoring...then you will kill Typophile. I guarantee it.
Okay, i don’t really advocate censoring, but we need to figure out something that will work. As it is, I feel that Typophile IS dying a slow death with all this bitterness being slung about freely. That’s why i’m so anxious as a moderator to find some sort of protocol that will work for creating a pleasant experience for everyone. i guess we need to agree on a couple things:
1) what is/isn’t appropriate for typophile?
2) what actions should be taken when content that is inappropriate is posted?
This all feels like a rehash of Forum Decorum, but obviously, those lessons didn’t stick...
26.May.2006 7.39am
what is/isn’t appropriate for typophile?
I have found that politics and religion are things that have wildly opposing, and sometimes irreconcilable views, and if I was a moderator, I would be firm about keeping those out of here. Hopefully the moderator would be even-handed, and not allow a dig at something he agrees with to sit there unchallenged.
It wouldn’t be censorship as much as an out-of-bounds for this forum.
If you can remove a link to a questionable font site, which is censorship of a type I understand, why not material that can cause hard feelings? I guess it would require skills in defusing a situation while keeping it upbeat, and not taking sides, but reinforcing the positive direction for the discussion.
26.May.2006 7.46am
>Well, I don’t think that they should be censored. I think that they should be rebutted. The problem is that they are often not, so others might get the impression that we are going along with the slur-slinging. Which, if we don’t say anything, we sort of are :-/
Dan, you make a really good point, which highlights the dilemma of those who are offended by a personal attack on an individual, or, as Paul notes, a group. (Note, Paul, it isn’t offensive in itself to ascribe political views to a person—eg to call someone a democrat if they say they are.)
The dilemma is that if they respond, they really risk being dragged into a mud-slinging match. If they don’t respond, they may be encouraging it, as Dan says. This is why only a moderator can really solve the problem by intervening and cutting out the personal attack on an individual or censuring and warning on the group attack.
The individual can perhaps best respond: cut out the personal attacks, this is not acceptable on Typophile. But it is way better if a moderator does it.
26.May.2006 7.50am
If you’re a moderator, you have the right to edit, delete, etc. posts that contain comments that are slanderous, or demeaning to any group or individual. If someone doesn’t like it they can start their own forum. I think in certain cases it may be the only way to keep this place on the right track. So Paul, go for it. On a personal note, I used to visit a certain graphic design blog daily, but had to stop due to all the Christian/conservative bashing that was going on. One of the things I have always loved about this form is the fact that, for the most part, religion and politics have been kept out. There are plenty of things we could all disagree about, but the reason we’re here is what we agree on, a love of type and typography. I’m here to learn, and have learned a lot, so thanks.
26.May.2006 7.55am
> I haven’t a clue what you are talking about
Dennis, if a bunch of people—including me—find your posting on homosexuals not funny and offensive, then I suggest you seriously try to figure out what they find offensive, and not dismiss their concerns.
If we have good will here, misunderstandings can be cleared up pretty quickly. But it does take a desire to clear them up.
ps. Chris Keegan’s phrase “demeaning to any group or individual” is great. That’s exactly what should be in the guidelines, and should be in a notice to individuals who post such stuff.
26.May.2006 7.57am
If something were to be removed, it would then give an indication of how much is too far. It is good for people to know what the limits are. Even though we know the speed limit is 65, most people will go with the speed they think they can get away with. If they never get a ticket at 70, they will probably start pushing that limit too.
26.May.2006 7.59am
Paul, it seems ironic the forum is “fighting about fighting”.
Fontplayer may have the seed of a good idea “It wouldn’t be censorship as much as an out-of-bounds for this forum”
This seed leads to compromise, a “fighting ring forum—section” for those that enjoy blood sports.
Giampa
26.May.2006 8.00am
Moderators, would you consider having two General Discussions fora? At the moment Typophile discussion is divided up according to different kinds of topic; there’s value in their also reflecting, to a pragmatically limited extent, different premises for discussion.
26.May.2006 8.03am
Dennis, if a bunch of people—including me—find your posting on homosexuals not funny
I didn’t realize there was a slur hidden in my setup, so I have rewritten it as follows:
************
I don’t know Latin so I can’t come up with the phobia name for people who don’t like “men who are acting like children”, but if tolerance is what is being preached, why not tolerance for men who act childish?
************
Keeping in mind it was just tongue-in-cheek, not serious...
26.May.2006 8.08am
>two General Discussions fora
George, I don’t think this is necessary. Personally, I think it is fine for someone to post start a thread which is explicitly political, such as the one Hector did (I hope I remember right) on the immigration issue.
Again, the real problem is not political discussion but rather demeaning remarks about individuals and groups.
26.May.2006 8.08am
George,
I am glad you agree.
Giampa
26.May.2006 8.13am
Personally, I think it is fine for someone to post start a threat which is explicitly political, such as the one Hector did (I hope I remember right) on the immigration issue.
I stand by my view that politics should be avoided. People feel too strongly...feelings get hurt...has nothing to do with fonts...scares away newcomers that could be new blood.
If there was an “Anything Goes” discussion section, it could have a warning. then it would be like attending the Colosseum to watch the slaughter.
26.May.2006 8.15am
William,
I agree, “demeaning remarks about individuals and groups”.
Those unkind remarks are uncalled for and has no legitimate position in the forum. It is “outside the bounds of civility”.
We may all learn to “bite our tongues”.
Giampa
26.May.2006 8.15am
Could we create a “Boxing Ring” Forum? That way, anyone who likes this sort of reciprocal podiatric mutual urination can go there and relieve themselves on each other. This would leave the rest of us, who are sick of it, to discuss and even debate issues of typography without fear that a thread would be hijacked and killed by a piszing contest.
This would also create a place to move posts that stray out of the realm of substantive discussion. What I mean is, instead of censorship and removal of a post, it could be moved to the “Boxing Ring” where the combatants, if they so desired, could go and continue their pugilistic tirades. This would be then the online version of a parent saying to a child, “Go to your room and come back when you are ready to behave with respect for others.”
ChrisL
26.May.2006 8.18am
ChrisL, I think you have a wonderful idea. I love the way you phrased it.
26.May.2006 8.18am
Hrant, I think your weakest arguements are political. They don’t seem to hold any sort of water whatever. I wait to be enlightened. I find Stephen Fry to be the most thoughful as of last week. I’ll send you a link if you want. (Of course your ideas about type are altogether different. Long may you continue to think!)
As far as rants & fights & insults. I have to agree that keeping it within core topic seems best to me in general. But we are going to stray outside and for good reason. Type is connected to world. Which is great or type would be irrelevant. Which it isn’t ( or we don’t think so or we wouldn’t be here).
As far as Patty’s concerns. Yes Patty... the water is dirtier on typophile that would be ideal - BUT - don’t be silly & let that put you off. It’s still by far the best place to be if you are thinking about type or want to learn more from your type brother & sisters.
And my thanks to everybody here for making it that kind of place.
I have been in Toronto & Buffalo NY ( Montreal now ) meeting really wonderful type people - something that I doubt would have happened without Typophile.
26.May.2006 8.26am
And I don’t cotton to the idea of censorship. Rebuke from your peers seems like the right thing; or that tool so little employed - ignoring the offender. Impefect they may be, but being an adult requires patience. And lots of it.
26.May.2006 8.31am
Chris,
I am happy you agree with me about the “ring idea”.
What I see is that we all agree that there is a “problem”. We seem to agree that we don’t like censorship. Some of us agree that, or at least Chris does about the “ring” idea. This should make everyone happy. Although still, as in a boxing match, “rules of engagement should still apply. For instance, “no hitting below the belt”.
Giampa
26.May.2006 8.38am
Just to be clear on where I do advocate censorship. Slander of individuals, and especially statements as to their competence in their fields, should not be allowed to stand in the Typophile record. Aside from being illegal, they are harmful to a person’s reputation and ability to make an income. This kind of stuff should be censored in my view, and is rightly self-censored by a lot of editors.
26.May.2006 8.40am
> If you have a problem with ...
> But don’t pin these ideas to people.
Paul, that’s pretty elegant - I hadn’t thought of it.
Although insinuation can’t be totally avoided, I think
this might strike a great balance. (I’ve edited my post.)
> I have revised my post above to read “what I
> take to be Hrant’s advocacy of autocracy”
I’m pretty sure Paul wanted the “Hrant” (and my “William”, which is now
gone) out of there. But I don’t think he should try to force you to remove it.
> Though I note that Hrant did not object to that formulation.
I think there’s a limit to that line of logic.
Anybody reading something like that is a factor.
Also, William: You should class religion with politics. Can you handle that?
> I think it is fine for someone to post start a thread which is explicitly political
While I think that is clearly one thing that must not be encouraged.
Same with religion.
> I feel that Typophile IS dying a slow death
I don’t think so, and I think to some extent you’re over-reacting. That one person shouldn’t have left (as I told him). Also, you should assume that there were more reasons than just the Typophile insult that he left. I’m basing these opinions on 8+ years of mixing it up bigtime in online type discussion fora.
If there is any real ill health, it’s in the area of [lack of] type crits.
I’d worry more about how to fix that.
> piszing
I know you like eszets, but come on. ;-)
BTW, the boxing ring idea can’t work, because it’s not all just about venting.
hhp
26.May.2006 8.56am
We may all learn to “bite our tongues”.
ideally, this is the perfect solution. perhaps it’s my place as moderator simply to remind others when to bite theirs. by the same token, feel free to let me know when i need to bite mine. thank you hrant & william for editing your posts, this gives me hope for future incidents.
26.May.2006 8.58am
Slander, or would that be “Libel”.
Typophile is a form of publishing. Censorship in automatic in that lawsuits are possible.
A forum however has the advantage that one is able to “somewhat counter attacks directly”, which I suspect would limit some liability. In fact leagally it is one’s obligation to limit liability which means helping the person who is speaking against you.
Legally speaking, determination of damages is always the question.
Slander is somewhat more insideous at times, it often happens behind ones back, not to mention harder to prove, as it is “heresay” evidence only.
I am against censorship. It is the price of freedom. That does not mean I agree with what people say, or how they say it. In that sense, I do not tolerate, intolerance.
Maybe there is better way of saying that?
Giampa
26.May.2006 9.11am
There are so many strong people and ideas here. At the risk of sounding simple, sometimes I try to contribute in proportion to what I take. Maybe a post in type ID or critique for every post elsewhere could be a way of creating a wider focus.
I’m not saying that many people here don’t already do that.
26.May.2006 9.17am
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9221
26.May.2006 9.18am
“I am happy you agree with me about the “ring idea”.”
Gerald,
I am glad to see great minds think alike :-) I hadn’t even read your post when I was writing mine—I am the worlds slowest typist :-)
So Bravo Gerald, great idea! I must have a future as a mind reader :-)
ChrisL
26.May.2006 9.20am
I am against censorship. It is the price of freedom.
In my mind, censorship is when just one side of an argument is excluded to promote the other side. This is essentially what is really feared by most people, I think.
But in a sense, we continually censor all kinds of things in life by rules or penalties to protect some environment. Like censoring speeding in residential areas.
Please keep in mind, most people who stick around any online forum over time have fairly thick skin. But many are scared away, or at least refrain from participating because they fear some unpleasant attack.
Often things are said online that wouldn’t be said face-to-face. And I think that most of us could sit down in a restaurant and have a good time in person. I don’t think there is anything wrong in cultivating a family atmosphere in a place meant for growth and development in an artistic pursuit.
As fonts relate to communication, I think discussion of all kinds of things may apply, but there is nothing wrong in making a place where the fallout from the potentially explosive topics be contained.
26.May.2006 9.22am
Paul,
“bite our tongues”
That is the most admiral method of censorship. More often that I wish to admit I wish I could “suck words” back into my lungs.
Best to think first.
I have another suggestion. You have “Preview comment”, “Post Comment”. Maybe after you hit the post comment you could have a warning come up that reads, are you sure you want to say that, “Cancel”, “Continue” options.
Sorry I must go.
Giampa
26.May.2006 9.29am
>Slander, or would that be “Libel”.
You’re right, my mistake. It is precisely because stuff can stay around a long time that malicious stuff against individuals should be cut out of the record. I don’t think and certainly hope that no lawsuits will ever happen because of a Typophile discussion. But the principle of not letting injurious stuff stay in the public record is a good one anyway, in my view.
>William: You should class religion with politics. Can you handle that?
Sure, they should be treated the same. Tiresome axe-grinding should be warned against by moderators, and name-calling stopped. But discussion on both should be allowed when relevant.
Incidentally, it is months since I have mentioned religion on Typophile, I think, and I don’t accept your characterization that I drag it in constantly. I just yesterday had an interesting dialogue on the ID board with a fellow who is interested in what Jewish law and ethics has to say about protection of intellectual property rights, in particular fonts. I think it was a perfectly appropriate discussion for Typophile.
26.May.2006 9.31am
Tiresome axe-grinding should be warned against by moderators,
No more readability threads. Alright!
26.May.2006 9.36am
Eben:
Democracy is to government what Comic Sans is to reading. In a number of ways.
> ideally, this is the perfect solution.
No. The ideal solution is total tolerance (including of intolerance).
But since that’s not humanly possible, some compromise is helpful.
Like this:
http://typophile.com/node/6268 _
http://typophile.com/node/16005
> many are scared away
Like in anything else, some people just don’t have what it takes.
Making good fonts is no guarantee of any other attribute, really.
It’s sad, but that’s the way it is. On the other hand, care for the
greater good and plain old graciousness leave room for some
accomodation of those who need the help.
hhp
26.May.2006 9.46am
“They make a wilderness and call it peace.” – Tacitus
I think censorship, apart from being a burden on moderators, who like the rest of us have family and business to take care of, would reduce the joys of Typophile and create more problems and fewer answers.
Tim
“When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” - C.S. Lewis
“When you have found your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall.” - C. S Lewis
26.May.2006 9.52am
It is natural to get upset about gross affronts to one’s sensibilities, perceived insults, ridicule of one’s often hard-won choices, lack of understanding for or sympathy with one’s motivations; it is unreasonable to expect they won’t be addressed; it would be nice if it was enough just to say: ’I am bothered by this’ or ’so be it’; I am at a loss about what to do if that isn’t enough; it is important to remain focussed: to not let them get in the way.
26.May.2006 10.06am
Regardless of the “growth” or “health” this arguing builds, I feel like its part of the reason why I stopped visiting this site so frequently in the first place. I’m a young designer, and I feel like some of the “one-up-manship” around here gets out of hand sometimes.
So lets give the kids like me something to look forward to. Rather than the life of a negative, holier-than-thou attitude that seems to plague these boards.
And if you have trouble finding that inner happiness, give this site a try:
http://www.cuteoverload.com/
26.May.2006 10.08am
This is a good opportunity to tell a story, a true story
of high relevance here. But I’ll try to keep it short.
—
Some years ago I was accused -as I periodically am, although that time it was quite incisive and eloquent- of causing valuable contributors to stay away from public discussion, in that case involving the venerable (and now apparently doddering) Typo-L. Due partly* to that, I decided to unsubscribe, and urged people to tell those who were staying away that the coast is clear. But they did not come. Also, nobody left because I did AFAIK. For a few months some people urged me to come back (and originaly I was actually planning to do that if those who were allegedly staying away never showed up) but I figured it was actually a good thing: it was a fruitful social experiment, I proved a point, and now I waste less time online! :-/
* Paul: partly. There were other reasons (that no single person can be blamed for).
—
In the end, it’s not the individuals who make/break a society, it’s the mindframe.
hhp
26.May.2006 10.19am
The sun must be shining even in Cincy by now :-)
Actually, I haven’t been in Cincy for over two months. I moved back to Washington, DC and now work in Maryland.
I guess I’m both a little amused and a little disappointed that a thread started to address fighting, has contained nearly EXACTLY the same level of bickering that the post was intended to address. While it makes complete sense that certain topics will spawn other issues (religion, ethics, etc.). Discussing political ideologies often seem to get us nowhere.
Unfortunately, by picking whatever a person’s chosen form of ethics (philospher’s, religion, the U.S. Constitution) a declaration has already been made as to “this is best.” Then this gets into how many books, so and so has read on the subject, how Lenin ultimately paved the way for Stalin, and a bunch of other things that prove just who is intellectually superior to the other.
The point is, we’re all adults here and we know what’s right and wrong...And I for second am not foolish enough to believe that before we all hit the “Post comment” button that we’re not in some way aware that what was typed could be deemed offensive. Our mothers shouldn’t have to slap our hands anymore to let us know the stove is hot.
26.May.2006 10.40am
> we know what’s right and wrong
I don’t think so. I know I don’t.
hhp
26.May.2006 10.55am
On the other hand, care for the greater good and plain old graciousness leave room for some accomodation of those who need the help.
Yes.
As far as moderation goes, I have seen good (sometimes the best) people flee a forum because they had better things to do than filter out hogwash. So I am for anything that promotes a friendly overall atmosphere.
26.May.2006 10.56am
Every forum has rules about civility and relevance. Civility means mutual respect regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, gender and, in my view, sexual orientation. Relevance means relevance to the subject matter of the forum. While debates about artistic and design ideology are in my view relevant to typography, debates about political policy that have nothing to do with typography, such as the Iraq war or local concerns about immigration, are not. Some fora have an off-topic sub-forum where people can pursue political issues if they desire. Personally, I’m not keen on this, but it does provide an outlet for those who can’t make it to Hyde Park.
The rules of a forum, regardless of whether they have been created by the owner of the site or by consensus of the participants, need to be enforced if the forum is going to flourish. It seems to me that censorship is the wrong word to describe doing what is necessary to ensure adherence to the rules.
My experience is that most people are prepared to adhere. However, there are people who simply won’t unless they are reined in. Also, many people, if not most, have their “moments”. The question is, how are the rules going to be enforced in such instances?
I believe that the existence of a moderator, who is prepared to step in, is essential. Self-control does not work when self-control has broken down.
My belief is based on long-term experience with three discussion groups that have minimal problems with the kinds of issues discussed in this thread. The common denominator of these groups is the existence of a moderator (in one case two moderators) who is active in the discussions, who is prepared to step in when things start to get out of hand, who has a talent for doing so in a diplomatic manner and who has the respect of the participants. In each case, the moderator is prepared, when he or she deems it appropriate, to delete a post or lock a thread. The result is that everybody understands the rules, and eggregious behaviour, together with the need to step in, is relatively rare. People who prefer anarchy, or who don’t like the rules, are at liberty to start their own forum.
A successful discussion group, like any meeting, requires a hands-on chair/moderator. I realize that this places a burden on moderators that they may not want to bear. To be blunt, that is beside the point. Successful discussion groups must have a person or persons who have both the time and the inclination to play this role.
The alternative is the same as what happens at a rudderless meeting. A small group of people highjack the meeting, the discussion deteriorates (and frequently becomes highly repetitive), and everyone else exits via the nearest door.
Some of the participants in this thread have suggested that the solution is to ignore individuals or posts that don’t play by the rules. I have tried that on this forum. As someone else pointed out, it doesn’t work. Without getting into detail about why, what happens is that the thread becomes impossible to follow.
26.May.2006 11.06am
Every forum has rules about civility and relevance.
Well said!
26.May.2006 12.21pm
Redge, I agree with some of what you say, but one thing I must counter is your desire to separate politics and type. As Eben I think it was said, that’s not possible; I would add that it’s not even desirable. For example, there are facets to the Iraq war (such as the looting of their museum by what many people believe were western entities) that are quite strongly cultural, and hence in some way (sometimes in quite a strong way) related to type. Fonts are not just pretty shapes. My Nour & Patria system for one was motivated directly by politics.
> I have tried that on this forum.
> As someone else pointed out, it doesn’t work.
Maybe you haven’t tried hard enough? Or you’re not capable of it?
Honestly I’m not trying to strike you down here - each of us is
good and bad at different things - and our differences should be
not only tolerated, but celebrated. But my point is, the fact that
it failed for you doesn’t mean it must be bad. In fact as some others
have attested, for them it works fine. And it could still work for you.
“I am resplendent in divergence.”
- Robert Fripp
hhp
26.May.2006 12.24pm
People, People, brothers and sisters, why are we fighting? Why are we fighting? We don’t want to fight. Everybody just cool out. C’mon we can get it together. Everybody sit down. Just sit down.
Jagger
26.May.2006 12.49pm
CASE IN POINT
“Maybe you haven’t tried hard enough?”
“Or you’re not capable of it?”
Was the second statement necessary?
Were it directed at me I would consider it inflamatory or a slight. To the first I could say: Perhaps.
26.May.2006 1.11pm
Hrant,
Two of the discussion groups to which I referred are for people who make motion pictures. One of those groups is specifically for people who make documentary films. Many documentary filmmakers express their political and social views in their work. Recently, one of the participants won an important award for a film that he made about Iraq. The discussion within the group was about his film as a film, including the views that it expressed. Despite the fact that the people in the group come from the right, the centre and the left, he was not attacked or mocked for his views, and the discussion did not degenerate into a debate about the war generally.
I don’t have a problem if someone wants to argue that a political ideology is reflected in a particular type face or if someone wants to talk about his or her attempts to embody an ideology in a type face. That is what I was trying to capture, however imperfectly, when I referred to “artistic and design ideology”, concepts that can include, but are broader than, social and political views.
I do have a problem when the discussion becomes principally about the politics or if someone is berrated for having allegedly expressed a particular ideology in his or her work.
On your other point, I can only say that I have found that I cannot follow some of the threads on this forum through selective reading and still make sense of the thread (see the word highjacked in my earlier post). In other words, I am indeed incapable of doing it, and I am not planning to spend time trying to acquire the skill.
26.May.2006 2.13pm
“The antidote to rage is the power of compassion and acceptance of the dignity of all”
- William Berkson
Love it.
peace
26.May.2006 2.17pm
Yes, but still: there is no love without hate.
> I am not planning to spend time trying to acquire the skill.
I cannot blame you. It’s not clear that the effort (even if
it might not be too much in your case) would be worth it.
hhp
26.May.2006 2.21pm
In all things is contained the opposite, as cognitives we have choices…
suffering on cloudy peaks
the cold air of joy
peace
26.May.2006 2.22pm
”...there is no love without hate”
If you truly believe that, I am truly sorry for you. It must be painful going through life so scarred by hatered that you come to that belief. I hope you can find peace within yourself.
ChrisL
26.May.2006 2.25pm
Paul: Yes. The notan of life.
Chris:
The relative peace within me is hopefully balanced with other things,
as opposed to being a cozy illusion fostered by not being challenged.
If you want to feel sorry for something, feel sorry for my people.
hhp
26.May.2006 2.25pm
“…there is no love without hate”
I believe that too. And it comforts me.
peace
26.May.2006 2.56pm
If you want to feel sorry for something, feel sorry for my people.
Most of the time I’m willing to chalk your crypticness up to you being part of some secret 17th level font Illuminati, but this one intrigues me: “my people”?
Do you mean the Armenians? If so, I am unaware of their plight. Something to do with Iran?
26.May.2006 3.20pm
fontplayer - plight
peace
26.May.2006 3.31pm
I have been part of this site for a long time, since the new typophile site, however my old handle no longer worked for some reason. Before a short while ago, i did not post, I only lurked in the background. Now, as I have become somewhat of a participant, I do think that personal opinions are relevant to any discussion; especially one that hits upon a sore spot within the creative community as a whole.
Additionally, I do tend to not post much here, as I have not been [accepted] per say; not to mention that in real life I am a difficult person to get along with. Most find me abrasive, caustic, and too much of a realist; so they chose to not speak with me. However, there are those that come and speak with me specifically for these traits. I won’t martyr myself here, as I am likely flawed in more ways than most others, but my recent attitude cannot be excused. Furthermore, I do not feel that it should need to be, as the responses I posted, and edited, were pertinent to the discussion topic, and merely clarified my position on a specific topic. If they were interpreted as anything else, than i beg you to forgive this, as I may have not worded them in a clear and concise manner.
More often than not, especially in the thread that I am referencing above, I find that there is a lot of “elitists” here, and that the banter is extremely stilted; often times to the point that it is above my comprehension. If there is one thing that bothers me most about this collective, it would be this characteristic style of cryptically concealing information inside a verbose series of statements that are understood by few, however, viewed by many. I wish I were of the caliber of writer, and reader to be able to comprehend a lot the material here, but it seems that I just don’t measure up. A majority of the content, aside from any critique or technical discussion, is where I find myself aloof amongst the moderators and other prolific members.
Recently, I have tried to be a more compliant member, and help others with questions they have posted, as most have acted kindly to me in the past. Looking ahead, I wish to continue doing so, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinions when they are relative to a threads content. Communication is nothing more than the expression of ideas and opinions, even that which is stated as factual knowledge was and is based on a series of subjective observations of this world. Moderating the content of this forum, and the statements of its members is a little too Orwellian for me to tolerate, and I would hope that things would never come down to this. I, and everyone else, are responsible for what we communicate, whether it is understood partially, entirely, or not at all.
Few choices are left to me, as the mood of typophile either settles or continues to become irritated; for any disturbance that can be solely attributed to my doing was unintentional.
26.May.2006 4.17pm
Hrant, a quick question.
About 25-35 years ago, a well-known writer for The New Yorker published a book about his discovery of his Armenian heritage and his investigation of the genocide.
I read the book a few years ago (it had a significant impact on me and was very well-written), but I can’t remember the name of the writer and I can’t readily find it through google, amazon, etc. I got it at a second-hand bookstore, and lost my copy during a move. There is a high probability that it is out of print.
This has been bugging me for the last week, entirely your fault. Do you happen to know the name of the writer or the name of the book?
One other question. My father, who is a writer, introduced me as a kid to Saroyan senior. Is he still read in the Armenian community, or is he considered too sentimental/ passe (sorry, but I don’t know how to do accents on this site)?
26.May.2006 4.36pm
> I find that there is a lot of “elitists” here
100% right.
26.May.2006 5.40pm
fontplayer - plight
So we are talking 1915? Anything current? Living right next to Iran is a scary thought.
26.May.2006 6.15pm
Therapy for message board prolific posters:
—-Listen to understand rather than criticize
—-Share ideas and thoughts that enlighten, spark new ideas, or deeper thought
—-Ask Questions with as much detail as possible so those who can help are providing the best answers and help.
—-Put the comments into an imaginary sorting box and look at them when you can be objective. Value and implement the good. Toss out the bad.
—-If a response or statement appears to be a personal attack- rather than a critique—- let it land at your feet... then step forward, crushing the words quietly beneath your feet, as you respond with dignity and grace.
—-If boredom, loneliness or depression is the motivator for meanness, nasty attacks, and constant criticism...You are considered a message baord troll...and you need therapy, not this forum.
One final question:
If your words and deeds were compared to typeface and fonts—- what typeface or font fits you?
—-and is that ’type face’ / font how you want to present your ’face’ to the world?
If not, make a change.
*** gina jane ***
graphic design, fine artist,
site owner of DAISIE,LLC
’relationships are the greatest art’
http://www.daisiecompany.com
26.May.2006 6.16pm
Beirut during Hrant’s childhood was a scary thought.
I have seen children of war in Viet Nam in 1968. They never had a childhood. They could never feel that their parents could keep them safe. They never could feel they had a future beyond the moment. Trying to find some semblance of order and normalcy is impossible for an adult—for a child it is devastating. When horror becomes the norm for a child, peace within one’s self is not possible. The scars never leave, the anxiety never fades. Cheating death another day becomes a pastime but buries its seed deep to bloom later in uncontrolled ways.
ChrisL
26.May.2006 6.44pm
Chris,
Your post, if it is directed at Hrant, as it appears to be, is exactly the kind of post that the moderators should come down on.
If this is what this site tolerates, I’m not long for it.
If I want to spend my time on a newsnet newsgroup, I know where to find one.
Your previous expression of pity was bad enough, but you have now gone way over the line.
There really is a point where the people who run this forum have to decide whether they are running a professional operation or the equivalent of a discussion between 18 year olds in a pub who have had too much to drink.
26.May.2006 6.50pm
Just wanted to add——
My brother Joseph (Joe) Pemberton and his colleague created Typophile.
Typophile is a wonderful place. I hope you all will participate here with reverence and respect for each other...
If for no other reason, but to honor my brother who puts his heart and soul into everything he does.
Kindness. It’s an amazing thing.
Thanks for listening.
*** gina jane ***
artist/designer/site owner
http://www.daisiecompany.com
’relationships are the greatest art’
26.May.2006 6.59pm
ChrisL
If your point was shock, it worked.
peace
26.May.2006 7.07pm
Fwiw, it was poetically stated:
Cheating death another day becomes a pastime but buries its seed deep to bloom later in uncontrolled ways.
26.May.2006 7.11pm
It isn’t just shock, it is outrageous.
Between bizarre attempts to turn Patty Fabricant’s question into a debate about Aristotle, and Chris’s (and others’) fundamentally astounding remarks, I think that I am in a very unpleasant version of Wonderland or, to use the current vernacular, a really bad version of The Matrix.
From my point of view, this is a bad scene, and that is an understatement.
Not that I matter. I have particular reasons for following this site at the moment, and I can do it temporarily, and then drop out.
You know what really surprises me? There are some really interesting topics outstanding, and they are being ignored.
26.May.2006 7.20pm
My version:
alive again
the buds arose,
blooming butterflies
:)
peace
26.May.2006 7.46pm
Paul,
No, I am in a position to say what I think, and I am going to do so.
Chris’s last couple of posts leave me stunned, and I can’t believe that a legitimate forum would let them stand.
Secondly, the attempts to turn Patty’s complaint about lack of civility into an intellectual debate about Greek philosophers is one of the most bizarre things that I have ever witnessed.
This business about Aristotle makes about as much sense as Hrant’s comments, in an earlier thread, about what he perceives to be my Anglo background.
I believe that this debate would make great fodder for a skit for Monty Python or Kids in the Hall (or to be more contemporary, Ricky Gervais, preferably paired with Scott Thompson, just to amuse the anti-gay participants).
Whether the people who run this site want outsiders like myself, who may stick around if they think that they are dealing with adults, to do so, is entirely up to them.
26.May.2006 7.56pm
Seems someone else feels the same way I do. My position is one of interest, and I to participate because I am interested. Nothing more needs to be said, other than that I completely agree with everything redge has said so far.
26.May.2006 9.14pm
Chris, your depiction of a “war child” contains a lot of truth - I’m happy to see you’re aware of this stuff. As you might suspect of a war child, I’m not shocked at all. Shocking was seeing a head on a bench in a public park. But of course every war child is different! Although it’s true that I don’t remember feeling like a child after about age 6, and I do have trouble planning for the future, I actually think my parents did fine, and most of all, I don’t remember being afraid (except for a certain 5 minutes where I came quite close to being executed) and I never cried (not even when my uncle was assassinated). I’m not sure why. Maybe I was eased into it, maybe it’s my genes, or maybe I was lucky to start the war at an insensitive age, and got a foothold that way. For example, my brother, who is 4.5 years older, is a lot like me in this way (although he’s a gentler soul) but my sister, who is 8.5 years older, cried a lot. When the lighted anti-aircraft bullets would streak up at nights, she’d hide in her room - my brother and I went to the balcony.
Yes, it’s quite strange living in a society that seems at peace. But part of the reason it’s strange is because I think most people around me are peons who don’t realize that there never is total peace - and that’s actually a good thing. It’s not healthy living a society secluded from the “real world” outside your borders. It causes you to adore your SUV, to vote for war criminals for president, to not see that the Founding Fathers were just good businessmen, etc. I don’t think these people are “normal”, and I don’t think I’m “abnormal”. War (conflict) is in all of us, it’s in every aspect of life. I remember telling a group of Dutchies during a dinner after a type conference about my war-time upbringing. Thomas Milo (who has served as a UN peacekeeper in Lebanon) was the only one who “got it”, smiling sadly - there is a great sadness to missing war.* Evert Bloemsma couldn’t relate, but his powerful intellect and wisdom allowed him to listen with fascination, and learn things from the discussion. Then there was this young lady whose jaw dropped open and stayed that way, and at one point exclaimed: “All I’ve seen is neat rows of tulips!” Was I supposed to feel envy? I felt pity. Remembering my favorite Heraclitus quote, it makes me feel that she’s had only one parent.
* BTW, I highly recommend the book “The Adventurist”.
I related to that author like I’ve never related to
almost anybody in my life - certainly no author.
Life is sort of a long anti-climax, after surviving a war. Once in a blue moon it actually makes me cry, but most of the time it makes me very proud. I think it’s what’s given me my ability to doubt convention, to persevere, to be tolerant, and to see aspects of life that I’m sure must be invisible to the peons. And what makes me most proud is that some years ago I realized all this, and have come to terms with it, have learned to embrace the dark half of life (which everybody has, just to different degrees). This makes me feel like I can generally be happy living with this aspect of my being, or at least know its effects on me, and what types of things can make me happy.
But most of all: I’m not just a war child, I’m Armenian. I am -quite literally- the grandchild of the unrecognized genocide. This you are unlikely to ever fathom. Maybe for that I am envious of you.
—
As for whether Chris is going too far, as far as I’m concerned, no.
But he does go too far when he (or his friend) complains about posts
like this that I make. Really Chris, that’s not fair. And I think it’s
a manifestation of the “darkness” you have in you yourself too.
——
You guys know what’s really interesting? We seem to make fonts
based on beliefs like this. It seems to me that the difference
between thinking that war is Evil and that everything must be
in balance is parallel to the difference between display fonts
and text fonts; the difference between