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Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> rubbish

Well, what goes around comes around…
In clearing out the rubbish between your [collective] ears please use a proper container.

If you’re concerned what “many” people are thinking, first learn to listen to the world, not your own recursive propaganda juggernaut.

hhp

John Hudson's picture
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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That is odd John, you accused Sharon of the same thing yourself, so did the Belgium court.

I said Sharon was a war criminal, I did not accuse him of genocide and, as far as I know, neither has any legal body.

John Hudson's picture
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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…your own recursive propaganda juggernaut.

Having read plenty of pro-Israeli media that overlooks even the most grievous atrocities committed by the IDF, I have no argument that propaganda — in the sense of unapologetically biased reporting — exists and is a real barrier to understanding the situation in the Middle East. But the majority of propaganda I see favours the Palestinian cause and regularly misrepresents both Israel and the Palestinian militant organisations. This is true of much of the reports from Reuters, Associated Press, BBC and other wire services and frequently cited news sources. Reuters, for example, regularly refers to Hamas as an organisation ‘fighting for a Palestinian state’, while failing to report that this (Islamic theocratic, non-democratic) state is intended to occupy the entire territory of Israel. This propaganda juggernaut has completely distorted the history of the Arab Israeli conflict, and it has been swallowed whole by a depressingly large number of presumably well-meaning, liberal people in Europe and North America. And then there is the anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish propaganda in the Arab countries and the Palestinian Authority. I have a very good friend who lives in Cairo, who reports that most of the Egyptian population believes that ‘the Jews’ were responsible for the attack on the World Trade Centre and offers as ‘evidence’ the ‘fact’ reported in Egyptian newspapers that no Jews showed up for work at the WTC that morning. And this is in an Arab country that has a peace treaty with Israel, so one can only imagine what the Syrians, Saudis, etc. are being told by their governments.

Rather than ‘listening to the world’, why not try being committed to the truth? There’s plenty of propaganda from both sides to sift through, without adding to it by making inapplicable and insupportable accusations of genocide and racism.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> the majority of propaganda I see favours the Palestinian cause

If that’s really the case, it’s because you’re listening to a broad spectrum. It’s a sad truth that what Americans are listening to matters more than what anybody else is listening to, and that happens to be the Jewish flavor of things.

My compaint isn’t that Jews get all the propaganda, it’s that:
1) They get the lion’s share in the world’s remaining superpower.
2) The citizenry of that superpower doesn’t realize the lopsidedness.

When somebody wields power repressively and deceptively, it’s bad for the world. I have no problem with concentrated power (remember, I’m a monarchist), I have a problem with injustice, and more power it wields the deeper we’re in the hole.

hhp

Gerald Giampa's picture
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Joined: 8 Aug 2003 - 2:09pm
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William

I am sorry, it seems to me that you were trying to show me something.

Anyway, you pointed to this link,

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1553620.php

and gave personal expression that Israel’s immigration policy is not racist. That you may be black, yellow or any colour as long as you are “Jewish”. Ironic, well know anti-semite Henry Ford said, “You can have any colour you like as long as you like black.”

This is a clear case of Ethnoism which is more pernicious than Racism. This contradicts Common Law Inclusion of a Right of Return immigration policy. Therefore, it is misleading. Which, I assume, explains your confusion. It could have been written Every Jewish person has a right to immigrate to Israel, the rest of you, we don’t care if your ancestor was Jesus Christ, bug off. What do you think? Just a suggestion.

By the way William, your words in italic.

A person who converts is a full Jew, including the right of return. This demonstrates that Judaism is not a race as defined traditionally or by the state of Israel.

I am not sure if this is in affect, but I believe the law is changed, or in the process, that Jewish converts will not be so allowed Right of Return.

NOTES:

1.) I accept a nation has a right to draft their own immigration policy, racist, ethnoist or not.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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BTW, William, you should know that a recent BBC survey (slightly more objective than some of your sources…) showed that there was greater support for Israel’s “policy” towards the Palestinians than there is within Israel itself! Not even counting its 10% Arab population. What does that tell you? Or at least us, who are not encumbered by a legacy coping mechanism…

You can pretend to be compassionate (or even merely pragmatic) as much as you want, but the fact on the ground is that the US (in its broader political presence of the House and Senate, even more than the White House) unwaveringly supports apartheid measures such as the limiting of marriages and the construction of artificial concrete borders*. Only the people already brainwashed are fooled. Claiming that popular opinion guides foreign (or even domestic) policy is part of the deception. So is the use of “Democracy” like a blunt weapon. But this two-faced approach will get you in the end.

* Something you won’t hear on CNN or Fox: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3334235.stm

hhp

Meredith's picture
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Joined: 16 May 2003 - 1:01pm
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As a U.S. citizen, I neither support nor reflect the actions of the U.S. government; in the same way, being a Jew doesn’t make one a human incarnation of the state of Israel. Let’s try to remember that the set “Jews” overlaps with but is different from the set “Israel.” It’s sloppy and inaccurate to equate the two. Plus, it annoys us Jews.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Certainly, but let’s not make that a convenient escape. Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel, since Israel is The Jewish State. US Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel and the US (although they might prioritize one over the other as they see fit). I’m responsible for three. But above all else, we are all responsible for this earth.

hhp

John Hudson's picture
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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Perhaps no single religion, but a group of religions. Any religion recognizing the divinity of Jesus may reasonably be called Christian. This leaves out Jews,Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and probably Unitarians. Also the belief in original sin, which is closely tied to the belief in the divinity of Jesus, seems to be part of all versions of Christianity. If I remember rightly, this minimal but important commonness of belief was view of the long Encyclopedia Britainica article ‘Christianity’.

I would probably agree with you that, if the term Christian were to be at all useful, one would probably need to agree on the divinity of Christ and the necessity of redemption from original sin. However, off the top of my head, I can think of at least a few sects who at least consider themselves nominal Christian that do not believe in the divinity of Christ and/or who believe Christ’s sacrifice redeems us only of individual sin.

My main point is that the term Christian doesn’t refer to anything specific. And God is in the details :-)