OldStyleFigures. Which are medieval-style numerals with varying heights/ascenders/descenders.

Well, more than medieval. They were common through the Renaissance through the Age of Reason. Really only started to become less common in the 1800s or thereabouts.

T

Oh, sorry Thomas. They're known in Germany as Minuskelziffern (because they're following the logic of small letters) and Medi

Oldstyle figures are also known as hanging figures.

Hmm... I thought 'ranging figures' meant 'lining figures'...

And these, of course, differ from tabular figures, in which the numerals are not only of a single height, but are monospaced for orderly (you guessed it) tabular data. An example of a font including tabular figures is Thirstype's Apex Sans.

I wondered about that after I posted it. Thanks for the clarification!

(spends 10 minutes drooling over Neutraface... again)

MVB Fonts include tabular figures in some of their fonts such as Sirenne and Verdigris. Feliciano also includes them in Rongel. They're all on my wish list. (As well as Neutraface -- I hear ya, Chris.)

HD: No need to apoplogize. Indeed, my comment shows my ignorance of the German terminology, which I find most interesting.

Stephen: There are also probably 50+ Adobe type families with tabular oldstyle figures. Essentially any family that has oldstyle figures generally comes with both proportional and tabular ones. Most of the same families also have both proportional and tabular lining figures.

Stephen again: You're right, "ranging figures" really is a synonym for "oldstyle figures" or "text figures."

Cheers,

T

Old style figures were the norm until around 1800, when they were almost wholly replaced by lining figures.

When the historical revival occurred around 1900, old style figures again became available, but as a little used option, mainly for quality book publishing.

The "definitive" digital face, Licko's Matrix (1985) featured OSF as standard. This set the tone.

Two FontFont faces, Scala and Meta, can also be credited with popularizing OSF again.

When these faces were introduced c.1990, they had OSF as the standard figures, and Lining figures as the alternates.

This was a radical idea at the time (for instance, Adobe and Monotype followed the standard practice of creating "Expert" fonts, which grouped Small Caps and Old Style Figures on an alternate font, often named "SC/OSF").

However, Matrix, Scala and Meta did not take the next step, which was to also make the OS figures tabular.

I reason that if one is designing a typeface from scratch today, it makes sense to have the standard figures as tabular, and oldstyle. This is what I have done with many of my designs -- Oneleigh, Merlin, Fontesque Sans, Bodoni Egyptian, Preface.

An exception to the trend towards OSF seems to be for newspaper fonts, where OSF tends to look too "bookish".

Lanston Type Company was first to offer old style (hanging) figures in PostScript, full set of ligatures, drawn small caps, and tied letters.

Naturally we also offered lining figures with these fonts. There was never need to order expert fonts.

Also first to offer both long and short descenders, swash italic and a full set of quaints, (long s with ligatures) Also with long and short descenders. Not to mention first with the questionable merits of italic small caps.

Plus our Keycap arrangement for Caps, small caps and oldstyle figures became industry standard. I believe that my conversation with Linotype in that regard was helpful.

Mrs. Eaves Roman includes tabular lining, tablular oldstyle, tabular small lining and tabular petite figures. As well as all their proportional counterparts.

John,

Is that a good idea? We always wondered about that! We kerned the figures. But if you wanted the figures tabular you simply turned kerning off. This is not operator painless. That reduced the quantity of fonts. Caslon 337 has 17 fonts for one weight which is confusing enough to double that we thought may be cumbersome.

What would you do?

BTW, you guys remember how I was looking for a [better] term for "hybrid" numerals? Well, I'm still pondering that, but I have found a pet term for my favorite kind of numerals, 3/4 oldstyle (hybrid) with a high "3" and "5": I'm calling them "poodlemix" numerals, since they're hybrids with a French flavor... :->

hhp

Gerald, now I know who to blame for that "industry standard" -- it was a royal pain in the butt. It meant that if one wanted to set Palatino or Adobe Garamond text with OSF, one had to change font each time figures appeared!

Fortunately, Emigre and FontFont established a better industry standard.

But those days are history, now that many foundries provide separate versions of regular roman for Lining and OSF. And of course OpenType has the works.

Sorry Hrant, don't think "Poomix" will catch on.

Nick,

Our fonts are not like that.

With our fonts you simply choose the font you wish to use.

If you pick Kaatskill with oldstyle figures that font comes with oldstyle figures.

If you pick Kaatskill with lining figures it comes with lining figures. All come complete with ligatures. There is no back and forth font changes required.

The industry standard that I was speaking of is Upper Case, Small Caps Oldstyle Figures. We did not name it, I think they called it SCOFS or something.

In any event, no changing back and forth required.

Or am I missing the nature of your complaint. How does Emigre and FontFont differ?

Thomas:
> "ranging figures" really is a synonym for
> "oldstyle figures" or "text figures."

I just did a quick google search, and it seems
that most people use 'ranging figures' as a
synonym for 'lining figures'.

Bringhurst backs up Eduardo on this one, as does James Felici's The Complete Manual of Typography.

Old style figures were the norm until around 1800, when they were almost wholly replaced by lining figures.

Nick, would you say that's true generally, or are you mainly speaking of the US & Canada?
I have no study or research to go on, but my impression was that OSFs were popular right through the C19, going out of fashion slowly over thre first few decades of the C20. This impression was formed largely through UK material, so it could be a 'local' thing. (It could just as easily be a false impression, though a quick - and unrepresentative - look around the stuff in my house shows hardly any lining figs on C19 items, becoming more frequent up to the 40s, then hardly any OSF in the 50s, and none after that until recent years).

The exception to this is documentation (as opposed to books,adverts etc) - lining figures throughout.

Dang, dunno how I missed that, since I have read Bringhurst several times. Maybe it never stuck in my head since I never use the term. Anyway, I guess I needed to learn something new today! Thanks, all.

T

Steve, I hope I haven't got this backwards. It's my understanding that text faces of the 19th century in most western countries were mainly moderns, which had lining figures.

However, there's no way to prove this without statistical analysis!

I'm assuming that the popularity of OSF is related to the popularity of old style faces.

So when the moderns, scotches, and romans of the 19th century held sway, this drastically reduced the amount of OSF in use.

For the 20th century, Linotype setups that were "Typeface + Italic + small caps" only occasionally had OSF (even for old style faces), so I believe that this resulted in a lack of OSF during the Linotype era.

Anyway, I guess I needed to learn something new today! Thanks, all.

This thread has been very edifying. Thanks from me as well!

Nick,

I take that as a yes. I assume we have done the right thing. Thank you.

Gerald,

Yes, it's OK now, but back in the early 1990s, when one bought a typeface like Adobe Garamond or Palatino, the Regular Roman had lining figures, and there was also an "Expert" font that had a "standard" of Uppercase, Small Caps, Old Style Figures.

So, if one had a long piece of text in those problem typefaces, where one wanted to use OSF, one had to change fonts every time a figure was used.

Also, if one wanted to set "Caps with Small Caps" in Adobe Garamond, one had to change fonts for every Cap!

So obviously Emigre and FontFont had a much better idea, first by making the OSF the standard figures for the roman U&lc font.

However, there were also introduced in the early nineties Linotype fonts such as Electra, that had alternate U&lc fonts, both "Regular" (with lining figures) and "OSF".

Thomas:
> "ranging figures" really is a synonym for
> "oldstyle figures" or "text figures."

I just did a quick google search, and it seems
that most people use 'ranging figures' as a
synonym for 'lining figures'.

This terminology is so bad that people can

Yes, I was annoyed to find recently that the majority of people use ranging as a synonym for lining, when I'd been using it as a synonym for 'oldstyle' figures. I still think the latter makes much more sense: the figures don't stay coralled in a fixed height, they range like cattle on the wide open prairie of the extender length.

Another term for oldstyle figures is 'hanging', although this isn't very satisfactory as only some of them typically hang (3 4 5 7 9), others sit (0 1 2), and others stand (6 8) -- ignoring for now that fact that some French figures are more upstanding than their cousins in other nations.

How about 'extending figures'?

" It's my understanding that text faces of the 19th century in most western countries were mainly moderns "

Well most of the books printed in M

John,

I agree that hanging figures may not be the ultimate descriptio.

However,

Bodoni is a modern, why suddenly oldstyle figures?

So perhaps hanging figures has its place.

Did the original Bodoni have oldstyle figs?

T

It appears that Bodoni had hanging figures or rather, oldstyle figures. At least the best I can make of it.

http://unostiposduros.com/paginas/bodopag.html

Bodoni is a modern, so the figures would be, on a stretch, modern oldstyle figures. Or, some what less confusing, hanging figures.

I say this knowing probably non of us suffer from such confusion.

>Did the original Bodoni have oldstyle figs?

Thomas, I just took a quick spin through my Octavo copy of the Bodoni Manuale Tipografico. The type specimens themselves to not generally show numerals. But the figures used in the introduction are indeed "oldstyle".

Note that Bodoni used the standing 3 and 5 (as opposed to the more common hanging form). I usually think of these as "French style" -- but I would be curious now to know who was the first to raise those two. Perhaps one of the Didots?

-- Kent.

P.S. I also always tend to think of "ranging" figures as oldstyle for precisely the same reason that John described.

Stephen,

I believe John, and Kent to be right. It was never our plant terminology, but that was my understanding.

Types of Typefaces by J. Ben Lieberman, 1967, uses 'ranging' as a synonym of 'lining' and both as opposed to 'old style'. As he was very familiar with type literature, his usage is probably the correct traditional one. You could check this with older books. Obviously it is a confusing term, best avoided.

John:
How about 'extending figures'?

I

Encyclopaedia of Typefaces by Jaspert et al., dating from 1953 (I have the 1970 edition), British, uses the term 'short-ranging figures' to mean "Numerals which range on the base line" and applies it to the numerals which extend from the base line to cap height.

Rodolfo Capeto ,

Our Bodoni 175 comes with French Figs and Lining Figures. Unfortunately we are in the middle of a web hosting change which should be up in a day or two. They promised that several times now.

I found the French Figures charming sometimes, not so charming at others.

Bringhurst dates the first lining figures to Richard Austin at the Bell foundry, 1788.

He also believes that it was commercial usage that prompted the movement towards lining figures.

To some extent, however, I believe it is more likely to have been part of the general modernization of typography c.1800 -- in particular, caused by people finding the roman numerals that had been used for numbers in all cap settings (because old-style figures looked so mismatched) to be archaic, long-winded, and complicated.

(Thanks, Rodolfo.)

The French old-style figs rule (I even like the "2" to ascend), especially in fonts with short descenders - and when you make them hybrids you get cute poodle mongrels! And Kent, I'm pretty sure it was indeed the Didots.

BTW, Updike cites a Mr Hunter as inventing lining nums in 1785, for use in log tables. And they apparently were called "ranging". :-/ It's looking like we need to avoid "ranging" like the plague.

hhp

Rodolfo, Grazia Bodoni is shown in Allan Haley's Hot Designers Make Cool Fonts. The numerals follow the traditional OsF pattern.

I don't know if Bodoni was consistent with the standing 3 and 5 in all of his fonts. The Manuale Tipografico does not generally show figures with the specimens for each size. Also, I have not done an exhaustive search of the work. But the numerals within the introduction are all "French style." Same with the page numbers and the index and the numbers identifying his catalog of ornaments. And there are two pages toward the end which show large numerals (I can't tell what size, but display sizes) which have a standing 3, 5, and 7, but short 0, 1, and 2, and a hanging 9.

Looking quickly through Updike, I notice that the Romain du Roi (as cut by Grandjean, c. 1700) appears to have had the standard pattern of OsF. Same with Luce's fonts (c. 1770s). The standing 3 and 5 show up with the Didots (c. 1780s).

However, I notice at least one instance of Baskerville cutting a standing 3 and 5! In figure 272 (Vol. II, opposite pg. 115), a notice of sale of some of Baskerville's types in Paris, c. 1789, (set, of course, in one of Baskerville's fonts) shows a standing 3 and 5.

The standing 3 is also seen in figure 165 (Vol I), which is an example of Voltaire's La Pucelle printed in France in 1789 using one of Baskerville's types.

Baskerville died in 1775. So, it seems conceivable to me that the "French style" of OsF may, in fact, have originated in a Baskerville experiment.

-- Kent.

Rodolfo, Grazia Bodoni is shown in Allan Haley's Hot Designers
Make Cool Fonts. The numerals follow the traditional OsF pattern.

Oh, thank you. I never got this one. Always ran away from that title.

However, I notice at least one instance of Baskerville cutting
a standing 3 and 5! [...]

Kent, I remember reading (but I don

two pages toward the end which show large numerals (I can't tell
what size, but display sizes) which have a standing 3, 5, and 7,
but short 0, 1, and 2, and a hanging 9.

BTW, my blunder. That

> it seems conceivable to me that the "French style" of OsF
> may, in fact, have originated in a Baskerville experiment.

Indeed! Especially when you consider that he was so admired and emulated by the French.
Great find, Kent.

> WB for his personality is the kind of guy who one thinks of as doing such experiments.

Really? I've always thought the shows on Warner Brothers are pretty mainstream... ;-)
JB.

> http://www.stonetypefoundry.com/html_pages/BodoniOverview.html

Note however that the "4" is also raised there. I'd never seen that elsewhere.

BTW, that Haley book is actually as good as the title is lame.

hhp

> it seems conceivable to me that the "French style" of OsF
> may, in fact, have originated in a Baskerville experiment.

Indeed! Especially when you consider that he was so admired
and emulated by the French.

I remembered where I read that it was the French who

> I need some holidays.

Just take along your own fingerprinting ink, please. ;-)

hhp

...or ranging figures or text figures.

Yikes! I take that back. Wow, I guess I always applied my
own definition to the term because it sounded like the
numerals "ranged" above and below the x-height. I'm ashamed.

Thanks Chris. But remember, tabular oldstyle figures exist. See Neutraface.

Back on Tuesday I said:

"Wow, I guess I always applied my own definition to
the term because it sounded like the numerals "ranged"
above and below the x-height. I'm ashamed."

Now with Kent Lew and John Hudson on my side, I am no
longer ashamed.