Palormak v.22 - It's a big bunch of revisions this time

Primary tabs

62 posts / 0 new
Last post
Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
Palormak v.22 - It's a big bunch of revisions this time
0

OK, it has a name just because I need to call the file something. I think it could do with a better one.
So, here's my attempt at a kinda-sorta semiserif font.
All the cahracters I have so far are inthe PDF. Trying to do it all with off-brand software is taking some getting used to, but it's all I can afford right now.

-EDIT- OK, there's a revised PDF also attached, but the original is still there for comparison.

-EDIT- Upon further reflection, this is hardly a semi-serif at all anymore. I might generate a sans version eventually, then I'll have something to work between.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

The bottom of the crossbars of "t" and "f" are different. "t" is flat, while "f" is bracketed in the manner the serifs of other letters are. Should these crossbars be unified, and which way should I go?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Here's the latest update: version 15, thanks to a bunch of software crashes corrupting the intervening iterations.
I think it's greatly improved. A bunch of letters have been added or corrected to bring the character set up to Adobe Latin 2 plus some ornamental extras.

The ascenders have all been stretched a bit and the upper LC serifs have been unified with a clipped wedge shape with a bracketed underside. Circle based letters have been made more, but not perfectly, circular, with the overshoots brought down a notch. Many of the letters that had a butt stroke end now have a tapered terminal, giving the impression of bent railroad spikes. The eszet and Sterling are totally new. A very tiny bit of contrast has been added overall, just -5 ems vertical and +5 ems horizontal, maybe getting just a little thicker on some of the curves. The numbers have been given a bit of extra spacing and other improvements, but are still tabular.

The image sample above is just a Q&D from the same template I used for the earlier ones. A more complete PDF sample is coming soon.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I always seem to post an update while I'm just about to leave for something.
Anyhow, version 17 here has a few alternates that have been suggested, along with various more subtle changes. Which ones should be the main selection? Your feedback, as always, is appreciated.

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

Wow, I haven't looked at this one in a while, and it's really coming along well! Later tonight I'll try an actual critique

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I may have a new iteration up by then. Just have to finish this pass at kerning and 'll have some new samples.

Unless I have yet another file error (and I've had a few between the last one and now), this will be version 20 coming up.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

All right, the new PDF sample is now loaded into the file list up top: palormak15sample.pdf

I completed the character set and rearranged them into somewhat logical chunks, though that does not in most cases have a relation to their positions in the font.

Steve Peter's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2004 - 11:00am
0

The f is too splotchy, so I'd go with the t treatment.

Ben Mitchell's picture
Offline
Joined: 12 Aug 2007 - 4:05pm
0

Hi Jason :) Here are my observations, please feel free not to pay too much attention to them as I'm only a beginner too.
This is an unusual design and I'm not sure I understand it. To my eye, there isn't enough unity between the different letters. I'm not sure there is a consistent pattern to the stress, the serifs, and the amount of 'weirdness'. I think some of the weirder ideas are wonderful! Look at your curly r and k and alternative C, they're great.
Some of the bits I don't understand...
n has foot serifs only on the outside. H has all serifs. u has a normal serif pattern. m is somewhere in between.
The curves in geoqs are quite relaxed and soft, and wide. abdp are quite sharp and strong shapes. m and w are narrow.
The ovwx seem to be monoline, but the stress is very pronounced in egrs.
I quite like the oddness of all these things, so I wouldn't try to make everything conventional, but the overall feeling is a bit complicated and disorienting.
I think the lc diacritics could have a lot more space below. I don't find vwxy work very well. g and p could do with more space on the right. I think h and n look too wide because the inner serifs are missing and there's a lot of counterspace. The quotes and comma don't fit.
Yes, I think the t and f should have the same crossbar, or at least the same general shape.
Keep going with this, it's very curious!

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

For comparison and further critique, here are the lining tabular numerals:

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
0

I like that "3".

hhp

Alexis Luengas Zimmer's picture
Joined: 23 Feb 2011 - 1:30pm
0

Regarding the lining figures:
- You need to get right all those overshoots. That /4/ is flying next to /3/ and /5/. /3/ looks short next to /2/.
- Also, make the thins consistent. /8/ is almost monowidth.
- The crossbar of /4/ is may be too low.

Regarding the oldstyle figures:
- I don't know if that /4/ works. Take the lining /4/ as a reference.
- Nice /8/ and /3/!
- /1/ may work, but right now all serifs are too short.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

So...

I have the stubby base serifs clipped off the v and w. To do the same to the corresponding caps would be a bit much. Would big ink traps do the job? Also, I am trying angled serifs on the Z. Would it be necessary to include that feature on the E, F, L, and T too? It seems to work without a global change.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

It looks like I can no longer edit my starting post nor can I upload more files to it.
Here is a PDF of my latest revision: Palormak 23 glyphs

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

You can catch a sneak peek of version 18 in action in the [[http://typophile.com/battle32|book cover type battle]]

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

I need to get back on top of my current font too, I need your work ethic :) I'm going to be without internet for a few days so I'll download your PDF and see what I can find in it in the meantime.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

Jasper Michael de Waard's picture
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 - 10:32am
0

4, 6, 8 and 9 nine don't really fit with the rest.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

No votes on the alts?

I've decided to make the C with the vertical spur the normal style, with the angled and horizontal serifs still available as alternates. It kind of violates the rail spike theme I had going here, but it goes along better with the changes I have in mind for the r.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

So anyway, as to questions of what this font is useful for: at first I was thinking about a somewhat old-timey movie titling font, such as what might be used for subtitles or captions. As it has progressed, especially through this most recent iteration, I see it more as a potential replacement for or text-sized complement to the likes of Copperplate, for those times when you're feeling locked into using Copperplate, but would really like to try something different. Well this is probably too different, but it captures enough of the same feel, and it actually has a lower case.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

While I let those numbers cook a while, here are some of the currency symbols:

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

I think on the v and w you could also clip off the right serif and taper it off.

For the l perhaps pull it down just a bit. It feels a little too floaty.

I don't think you need to worry too much about the capitals. The lc z with the diagonal and the uc without it looks good. Especially for letters like cC mM nN sS vV wW xX and zZ the more distinction that can be made the better, since the x-height is so close to the cap height. Would would a C with a straight serif look like?

Also your super3 is a noticeable bit larger than the super1 and super2. This is really starting to mature.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I've been working on something here, but after leaving it idle for a couple months to work on other fonts I've lost track of what changes I've made. I probably still have a lot of work to do on spacing and kerning (for some reason this is a lot harder to do on FontForge than Fontographer, even though the interface is similar).

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

For the l perhaps pull it down just a bit. It feels a little too floaty.

The tapered hook base of the lc L already descends slightly. I'm afraid pulling it more will start looking like a weird elongated backwards j. I could go back to a flat serif base like on the i, but that would mean redoing all that spacing and kerning, which needs to be redone anyway.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I think I may finally have this one down! I've already made a few tweaks from the last posted version, but I'd still like some feedback if there is any out there. The "z" is still giving me trouble, of all things, and I'm thinking of clipping the serifs off of the "s". Those just don't really relate to the rest of the font, and don't exist except for the purpose of putting serifs on the "s", but what would work better there?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Just so you all know. I'm not dead. I've continued making refinements to this font, and I think I'm nearing completion. Coming up with a good way to present it has been a bit of a struggle, as has been tackling class-based kerning. I'll come up with a sample of the latest iteration shortly.

André Simard's picture
Offline
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 - 12:11pm
0

You type face is pretty interesting. I'd make some comments on the design. I find the bar on some letters too big (compare the E with the ŁÐ), the punctuation seems too big also. The oblique bar of the Ø could be longer. I like what you've done with the l but I wonder if this kind of terminal suited well on the q. To my eyes this q seems to be an a with a long tail. The “curve” in the r r should be less large at the junction with his stem. The connection of the a with the e in the æ could be lower may be at the same height of the bar of the e. The ampersand is nice, but it would have more punch if you increase the lower bowl and reduce the upper one. Hoping that will be helpful. Keep going.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I've neglected the superior/fraction numerals. Time to revisit them.

I'll try some of the variants you suggest (like the C with straight serif).

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Coming soon is version 17 (16 had a file error). I've stripped the serifs from the "s" leaving it with tapered terminals and it looks fine to me amongst the other letters. "f"and "t" now have tapered crossbars which looks odd close up but works in other ways. Also the "N" and uppercase "ß" are redesigned. I'm still not happy with the "x" and I am torn between the current "r" and a redesigned one with more curl, much like the arm of the "k".

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I'm finally revisiting this after a year and a half, and with what I've learned while working on Agamemnon, I can more easily see the flaws in this design, but I think it can be saved and made into a useful product. I'll still keep this far less ambitious, maybe expanding the character set to Adobe Latin 2 but no further until the market demands it, and once finished maybe developing it into a standard 4 style family.

Updates coming sometime.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Now I find an actual serious problem. The serifs of the T crash with the lowercase short letters when I try to kern them.

The only practical solution appears to be to shorten the hanging serifs from the top of the T. Would that be wrong?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

On a technical side, this font rides... how does one put it... low in the em? It looks really short for whatever point size it's set at, which isn't readily apparent in the samples since I didn't note the sizes.

If I reduce the size of the em square will that fix this problem? If I do that, would I then have to rescale the em square back to 1000 and risk distortions due to rounding or is an arbitrary em square OK? Is there a different setting that would correct the problem?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

To my eyes this q seems to be an a with a long tail.

But isn't that what a "q" is supposed to look like? Notwithstanding that it doesn't look at all like the "a" in this font. Better this than just a reversed "p", which is why I made the "q" without the serif at first.

The punctuation is a bit bold, but I did that on purpose to prevent it washing out at text sizes.

The "r" has been exceedingly tricky to get while maintaining the rail spike paradigm that has evolved. I'll keep changing it til I get it right.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I've let this sit for almost a year and a half? I need to get to get this finished. If only I'd known then what I know now. There's something seriously ugly going on that I hope it won't be too hard to fix.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I made a try at raising the inner apex of the A by turning the legs a bit more vertical. Pleased with the results, though this may have made the top serif look wide.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I made a set of oldstyle figures to go along with the font. Probably hard to say much about it without context, but what do you think?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I realized only now that the "p" descender is too short, and my em square is to big and stuff and junk. The "p" and thorn though are the only ones with a serif on the descender. The rest all have pointy things and/or curves.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0


Here is version 22. Yup, between a file error and an experiment gone awry, I've skipped five versions from the last one I put up here. There are a lot of changes between this and 17, many of which were already discussed, and I didn't document them well otherwise. Taking notes is something I never developed a knack for.

PDF of the above image on top.

If there is a more useful sample layout, please feel free to suggest one and I'll try to set one up, bearing in mind the only fully OpenType capable program I have to set it up in is TextEdit.

Steve Peter's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2004 - 11:00am
0

Welcome to the iterative world of type design.

Remember that you're designing a system of signs that will work in concert. You're not just designing a T, but a T that will be used with other glyphs. That interaction will inform your design decisions.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I know, I know; beautiful collection of letters not collection of beautiful letters and all that...

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

So, continue with the spacing and kerning, yes? How is the "q" with the serif working? What of the newly flat-topped "vwxy"? Should those go back to the sloped serifs of the rest of the lowercase?

Steve Peter's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2004 - 11:00am
0

I still find the apex of the V/v and W/w too visually heavy. Also, try making the h and n a bit narrower, since you don't have the right side of the left serif to balance the shape. (Oh, and see if you can taper the ear of the g a bit where it joins the bowl; that strikes me as a bit too heavy, too.)

Overall, I do like the progress you've made.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I thought I'd pounded most of the quirks out of it by now.

At the beginning, there was no stress or contrast in Palormak, it was a relatively simple mostly monoline semi-serif. That origin is probably where the remaining quirks reside. Any hint of stress or contrast was added later as I learned things from other projects. The serifs took a new shape and the tapered terminals were introduced on many letters. The tapered terminals give the appearance of ductus but for different reasons than the usual causes. It all makes sense to my eyes and way of thinking about it, except where I'm still struggling, where it doesn't.
The serifs of "vwxy" are notably troublesome.

As I made various changes through the process, I recognized a kind of "rail spike" motif. It doesn't literally apply to every letter form, but the spike shaped directional arrows I included reinforce it in a way, if at least as a reminder.

Significant changes are underway, but you'll recognize it.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Here's another go at the oldstyle figures:

I know, it looks like a totally different font now, and probably still needs some tweaks.

Sebastian's picture
Offline
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 - 12:12pm
0

Cuttlefish,

Interesting. The serifs and shape of some of the bowls have a very Art Deco / Jugendstil feeling. Personally, I am trying to link design elements like serifs, contrast, stress etc. with how letters where drawn with pen or brush etc. With that perspective, some of the letters feel a bit off (v/w: bottom serifs, o/g: contrast, s: no serif etc.).

Note that this is just one way of looking at it, which is probably a bit too restrictive. But in general, I think letters of a font should form a cohesive set linked by a common design language.

What about for instance use the same contrast / stress for all the letters?

Sebastian

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I'm not sure what you mean about a lack of contrast in the "o" and "g". I thought the entire font was lacking contrast. Or did you mean something else?

I have an alternate "g" around here somewhere... give me a sec...

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0


So here I've swapped out for the alternate "g" and clipped the lower serifs from the lc "v" and "w", and placed a ball terminal on the "y".

Also I did up some of the ligatures that weren't there before and expanded the numbers. They felt too narrow before, but some still don't work for me. The "2" is much improved, but I don't know about the rest...

not sure what I did here... can't upload a PDF to a reply comment, I guess. I'll try editing the first one.

Sebastian's picture
Offline
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 - 12:12pm
0

You're right, there is no contrast throughout. Maybe thats why I can't seem to find that 'binding unity'.

I like this g and v better. Why did you put inktraps in the v, w etc?

The numerals seem a bit flat, besides the 1, they lack serifs and /or other common design elements.

The fi ligature is funny. It is sort of a non-ligature as the dot of the i is still interfering with the arc of the f!

Sebastian

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

Aww, and I had to make the "i" on "fi" so short to make the dot fit like that. I prefer to think of it engaging the arc of the "f" in a deep sensuous kiss than interfering with it.

The inktraps felt like a good idea at the time. With or without serifs, the angle joint of the "v" and "w", etc., get too thick for my eyes. This might not be the best solution as I've implemented. I'm open to suggestions for a better one.

I had hoped the nearly consistent line weight would be enough to provide "binding unity" as you put it. The crossbars and the long, inconsistently applied serifs do throw that off a bit. I'm not convinced serifs would work on the "s" at all, and I'm debating whether to remove the one from the "c".

But, y'know, it's all an experiment until it goes to market, if it ever does. I wanted to do a monoweight font with long serifs and this is how it's coming out.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I made some pretty significant revisions in this version, most notably in totally redesigning most of the numerals and the "g" again. Tell me if you can spot the rest of the changes. Vector PDF up at the top again. I know the space glyphs got too wide somehow this time around. That, I will fix.

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

So, what do I need to do now? I'm experimenting with serifs on the "s" and "S", but I don't really like them.
Do I need to put a right hand serif on the "i"?
Anything else?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0


Here it is again (and in PDF #5 up top) this time with the serif'd "S"s, an new "G" and "Q", more universally applied ink traps and some other miscellaneous changes. I have a bigger view here of the numerals. I'm trying to keep them monospaced, which could explain why they're still a little wonky, but much better than what I started with.

I'm still taking suggestions on the name, and anything else that might improve this.