Eben, the zdot will appear in Polish close to i in quite a few words, so IMO it looks like a mistake to have it lower than the i dot. And when you get into Celtic....
As a principle, I'd say it's OK to have umlaut dot accents a tad lower than the i dot, if they're also smaller, and because they're two of them. But really, the dot on the eye IS an accent (note Turkish), so it should be treated consistently.
eben: "poms list" is the list of german words by the user "poms" earlier in this thread. and as he notes, i cant think of any german words ending with an ö or having two ö's after each other. i could probably find a swiss german word doing it, but swiss german is only written in emails and sms, otherwhise it only gets used while talking. but if we write swiss german, we use lots of umlauts.
Oh, they’re quite boring, interior and milieu. There are completely finnish words to be used instead of these. Öland, an island is Sweden is known as Öölanti in Finland. Also the err, am(?), well equivalent is öö, with the exception that the Finnish öö can last several seconds, if you don’t know what to say. Kööri ≈ gang (as in the gang that sometimes ids faces around here).
Turkish is an important "umlaut language" also. Ünlü, Gül and such. In Germany there live some million people with turkish heritage or being turkish. Not so unimportant.
What a nice thread :) – ööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö
For what it's worth, here are two random Finnish excerpts in Whitman. The first is from a horoscope (Aries, back in Dec 2003). The second is an instruction from a recipe (for something called Hunajaiset juuresnyytit). I don't speak a lick of Finnish, so I haven't the foggiest clue what these samples say. I chose them for the päiväjärjestyksestä, neliöita, and folioneliöiden.
Here's the rough translaton:
Christmas time is all go, so don't leave important tasks till last minute. Your sleepy season is about to end. The more thorough you were in clearing unimportant issues from your agenda since Summer, the clearer start you'll have for the New Year.
Cut foil into squares (about 30 x 30) and then divide the vegetable ragout on the squares.
The final word päälle should have two ls
I just had a look at your Software Developer, and I like it. Maybe the umlauts could be a bit closer to each other? Personally I don't like them too far apart.
Nick, Thanks for the hints on the dot accent!
Mili, Thierry Poms & Lari : Thanks also.
All: I should have a new round of txt docs with example words for the 'brute force testing thread' and this one in the next week or so.
Thanks, Kent. That shows the relationships of the i and umlauts very well. I'll play with mine to get that kind of relationship between height above the letters and weight, though mine'll have to be different as the design has a quite different feel.
Eben, perhaps a good test file for each character, based off this thread's responses, could be added to diacritics.typo.cz?
Sure. Sounds good. If they want it there. I was keen to make it because it wasn't there yet. :-)
Kent: That was wicked awesome!
Another test word, very difficult to space:
lyxvilla = luxury villa in Swedish
Recommended by Gerard Unger.
Difficult to space and impossible to afford :-)
I was thinking about this a bit more - and thinking about organizing principles.
Originally I thought I would organize the examples around letters laid out in a TIRO like sequence a, and then acute, and all the lc a examples, and then b. This still seems okay to me.
But then I thought about doing it my language. Then there would be either one giant list or many small lists. Or both. The idea there would be to allow you select a language or a series to support rather than making you wade through all 60 kinds of lc a+accent combos.
There is 3rd way as well the diacritics.typo.cz way which is to organize around the diacritic itself:
Diaeresis / Umlaut
The problem I saw with that is that it doesn't give equal billing to the eth for instance.
So I am starting to lean towards the language centered model. It ties in nicely with pages like this:
But really, I wonder what you think would be most useful to your own font development process. How do you prefer to organize your work & thoughts? What would be most helpful to you?
I tend to think by language makes the most sense. There are glyph combinations that are common in one language and rare in another. If you compare Finnish and Czech, you get a wholesale change. French, Spanish, and Italian are not that much different. Icelandic has a unique look. In the CE languages, It is not just the coloration created by the heavy use of diacritics, but the clustering of asenders and the frequency of glyph pairings not typical to romance languages. Italian feels rounder and softer with so many vowels compared to the heavier use of angled glyphs in Slovak or Polish.
I came across a site last year that has the story of the Tower of Babel in many languages. I will look it up when I get home but you can just as easily Google for it (which is how I found it).
PS: I found it, here:
Cris, good point - I like it. I think I am pretty much convinced. Doing this by langauge also parcels out the work a bit which is nice. I think language centered it is.
If anybody disagrees or has a counter arguement, I hope you post soon!
I think I'll do one in English 1st & then maybe Mili ( and others?) will help me do the finnish & so on. Come to that is anybody willing to help me with the english? Once I have an testbed done as an example does anybody want to claim a language to do?
I am with you Eben.
Language specific glyph tests : English
Date: Feb 7 2007
Last editor: Eben Sorkin
FONT DEVELOPERS: FEEL FREE TO TRIM THESE NOTES OFF
Notes to those adding to or correcting this document: Aesthtics, Frequency and
Difficulty should be considered when adding to this document.
Glyphs covered in this document include:
For glyphs which are not puctuation the pattern to be used (when possible) is as follows:
1 word with the glyph as the 1st character, 1 word with the glyph as the last, 1 word
with the glyph doubled. Each word is presented in lower case, Inish Caps, and ALL CAPS.
Additional variations may be included at the discretion of the editor, but these should
follow the core sample pattern.
If a pangrams can beadded at the end with or without notes and or translation.
If possible typical/common puctuation such as those for ordering, money, weights etc.
would be good to include as well.
Thanks to : http://www.eki.ee, diacritics.typo.cz, wikipedia.org and typophile.com
apple, Apple, APPLE, napa, Napa, NAPA, aah, Aah, AAH, baathist, Baathist, BAATHIST,
beanpole, Beanpole, BEANPOLE, nib, Nib, NIB, babble, Babble, BABBLE,
cancer, Cancer, CANCER, vaccine, Vaccine, VACCINE, cachectic, Cachectic, CACHECTIC,
That is my rough start. Comments?
Seems clear enough, Eben. I can help you with the Finnish. Would you prefer short or long words, or perhaps a mixture?
"Apple, 'Apple, Napa" Napa' (Apple Napa) etc. ?
I was going for a mix because English uses short & medium length words in typical use. In contrast, the German version of this document should have short medium & long I think.
Because English includes 'loanwords' like doppelgänger and Pâté that are used with accents I included accents too but I have separated towards the end them because they are atypical.
Unfortunately I don't have the abreviations and punctuation examples in place yet.
I was thinking one sample per common/major puntuation glyph:
. - Hello.
? - How are you?
, - I am fine, how are you?
; - I was fine before; and now I am fine too.
! - What a silly conversation!
' - 'What a silly conversation'?
" - Yesterday he said "I don't know what you mean by 'What a silly conversation' can you explain?".
(I need to add curly quotes as well)
() - How can you say ( cough, cough) 'What a silly conversation!'?
& - It's just what Bob & Alice say all the time.
# - And write with their #3 pencil I might add.
* - # three* *= Sometimes Number is writter as #.
That kind of thing.
I would also like to have things like 'lbs. , St. (street), St (Saint) but the truth is I haven't looked into it in enough detail. Also I am not as sure that breaking that by langauge is the right way to do it. It might be better to have examples and list where they are used. For instance US & UK standard for this stuff vary I expect.
Mili do you want to start right away or wait until we have all vetted an english template?
Well, that's why I posted it. No doubt there may be better words, better ways or organizing them and even missed examples that aught to be included. What do you think Chris? Are you sggesting working a puctuation test in as well? I think that might be too much visual info in one go to be helpful. But maybe not. What do you all think?
Eben, I'm going to start thinking about the words in a bus on my way to a meeting today, but please don't expect immediate results. I'm rather busy at the moment.
I am grateful for all your help already. Anything additional will be a bonus whenever that is. Thanks!
Some words in portuguese:
äänittää, Äänittää, ÄÄNITTÄÄ (three in one!)
äiti, Äiti, ÄITI; mikä, Mikä, MIKÄ or sää, Sää, SÄÄ; säätiö, Säätiö, SÄÄTIÖ
öky, Öky, ÖKY; keskiö, Keskiö, KESKIÖ or yö, Yö, YÖ; söötti, Söötti, SÖÖTTI
Söötti and öky should probably be replaced with better words. That Öölanti, maybe.
Lari, I've got also ääliö, määkiä, käymälä, öylätti, töölö and kylmiö on my list now.
Problems with doubles and endings with B, C, F, G (aggressiivinen and grilli are in), H (hohhoijaa? not really a word), J, K and M (last letter missing), Q (completely empy), V (end missing), W (only Wirtanen...), X and Z (empty), Å (double and end)
Most of the missing cases mentioned above are either extremely rare in Finnish or nonexistent.
All the other letters have been thought about but not yet typed
Finnish looks like so much fun! It just makes you smile to look at it.
Sinebrychoff, puffi, Zacharius… this is hard. Proper words that end in consonants are rare. L, N and S (T with plurals) are the only ones I can think of right now. B, C, F, Q, W, X, Z and Å are not even part of the ye olde finnish alphabet, that is there are no words other than those borrowed from other languages that have them.
Well, here's one version of the Finnish:
ahven, Ahven, AHVEN
maalaaja, Maalaaja, MAALAAJA
kukka, Kukka, KUKKA
blini, Blini, BLINI
abba, Abba, ABBA
celcius, Celcius, CELCIUS
derivaatta, Derivaatta, DERIVAATTA
etätyö, Etätyö, ETÄTYÖ
teepannu, Teepannu, TEEPANNU
kalle, Kalle, KALLE
foliorulla, Foliorulla, FOLIORULLA
puffi, Puffi, PUFFI
sinebrychoff, Sinebrychoff, SINEBRYCHOFF
grilli, Grilli, GRILLI
aggressiivinen, Aggressiivinen, AGGRESSIIVINEN
häntä, Häntä, HÄNTÄ
hihhuli Hihhuli HIHHULI
pöh, Pöh, PÖH
iilimato, Iilimato, IILIMATO
piimä, Piimä, PIIMÄ
talvikki, Talvikki, TALVIKKI
jalopeura, Jalopeura, JALOPEURA
kaija, Kaija, KAIJA
kuorma-auto, Kuorma-auto, KUORMA-AUTO
pakkanen, Pakkanen, PAKKANEN
lainelauta, Lainelauta, LAINELAUTA
mollukka, Molukka, MOLLUKKA
sammal, Sammal, SAMMAL
märehtijä, Märehtijä, MÄREHTIJÄ
mämmi, Mämmi, MÄMMI
nenäliina, Nenäliina, NENÄLIINA
pannukakku, Pannukakku, PANNUKAKKU
pörriäinen, Pörriäinen, PÖRRIÄINEN
ohjauspyörä, Ohjauspyörä, OHJAUSPYÖRÄ
soosi, Soosi, SOOSI
valvomo, Valvomo, VALVOMO
pääministeri, Pääministeri, PÄÄMINISTERI
oppipoika, Oppipoika, OPPIPOIKA
raitiovaunu, Raitiovaunu, RAITIOVAUNU
parrasvalo, Parrasvalo, PARRASVALO
tytär, Tytär, TYTÄR
sammakko, Sammakko, SAMMAKKO
kassi, Kassi, KASSI
vatsakas, Vatsakas, VATSAKAS
tähtivyö, Tähtivyö, TÄHTIVYÖ
päättäjäiset, Päättäjäiset, PÄÄTTÄJÄISET
hölmöt, Hölmöt, HÖLMÖT
uimakoulu, Uimakoulu, UIMAKOULU
muuttua, Muuttua, MUUTTUA or kuu-uutinen, Kuu-uutinen, KUU-UUTINEN
almu, Almu, ALMU
vilkkuva, Vilkkuva, VILKKUVA
wirtanen, Wirtanen, WIRTANEN
yrjänä, Yrjänä, YRJÄNÄ
pyynikki, Pyynikki, PYYNIKKI
hyppy, Hyppy, HYPPY
zacharias, Zacharias, ZACHARIAS
åland, Åland, ÅLAND
äiti, Äiti, ÄITI
määkiä, Määkiä, MÄÄKIÄ
pähkinä, Pähkinä, PÄHKINÄ
öylätti, Öylätti, ÖYLÄTTI
töölö, Töölö, TÖÖLÖ
kylmiö, Kylmiö, KYLMIÖ
Great stuff Mili!
This is what I made for English today (& I second my appreciation; Great stuff Mili!) Feel free to quibble with my choices or add to them if you like.
Aa: apple, Apple, APPLE, aah, Aah, AAH, baathist, Baathist, BAATHIST, napa, Napa, NAPA,
Bb: beanpole, Beanpole, BEANPOLE, babble, Babble, BABBLE, nib, Nib, NIB,
Cc: cancer, Cancer, CANCER, vaccine, Vaccine, VACCINE, antiseptic, Antiseptic, ANTISEPTIC,
Dd: dog, Dog, DOG, sodden, Sodden, SODDEN, god, God, GOD,
Ee: empathy, Empathy, EMPATHY, been, Been, BEEN, smile, Smile, SMILE, licensee, Licensee, LICENSEE
Ff: frog, Frog, FROG, stuffed, Stuffed, STUFFED, staff, Staff, STAFF,
Gg: great, Great, GREAT, froggy, Froggy, FROGGY, stag, Stag, STAG,
Hh: hill, Hill, HILL, hitchhike, Hitchhike, HITCHHIKE, fish, Fish, FISH
Ii: insight, Insight, INSIGHT, waterskiing, Waterskiing, WATERSKIING, cacti, Cacti, CACTI
Jj: job, Job, JOB, avijja, Avijja, AVIJJA, hajji, Hajji, HAJJI, taj, Taj, TAJ
Kk: knit, Knit, KNIT, trekkers, Trekkers, TREKKERS, book, Book, BOOK
Ll: light, Light, LIGHT, alligator, Alligator, ALLIGATOR, mall, Mall, MALL
Mm: mouse, Mouse, MOUSE, mommy, Mommy, MOMMY, allium, Allium, ALLIUM
Nn: nymphs, Nymphs, NYMPHS, sunny, Sunny, SUNNY, amphibian, Amphibian, AMPHIBIAN
Oo: owl, Owl, OWL, spoon, Spoon, SPOON, also, Also, ALSO
Pp: practical, Practical, PRACTICAL, flippancy, Flippancy, FLIPPANCY, top, Top, TOP
Qq: quake, Quake, QUAKE, zaqqum, Zaqqum, ZAQQUM, umiaq, Umiaq, UMIAQ
Rr: grrl, Grrl, GRRL, hurricane, Hurricane, HURRICANE, ear, Ear, EAR
Ss: so, So, SO, sassafrass, Sassafrass, SASSAFRASS, atrocious, Atrocious, ATROCIOUS
Tt: the, The, THE, tsunami, Tsunami, TSUNAMI, mottled, Mottled, MOTTLED,
Uu: ulu, Ulu, ULU, vacuum, Vacuum, VACUUM, bayou, Bayou, BAYOU
Vv: valley, Valley, VALLEY, savvy, Savvy, SAVVY, maglev, Maglev, MAGLEV
Ww: white, White, WHITE, glowworm, Glowworm, GLOWWORM, sorrow, Sorrow, SORROW
Xx: xenophobe, Xenophobe, XENOPHOBE, zaxxon, Zaxxon, ZAXXON, bordeaux, Bordeaux, BORDEAUX
Yy: you, You, You lyyn, Lyyn, LYYN, smiley, Smiley, SMILEY
Zz: zowie, Zowie, ZOWIE, puzzle, Puzzle, PUZZLE, fuzz, Fuzz, FUZZ,
This is a long thread, and I have only skimmed it, so I may be trying to make points already made.
The "word test" is a nice idea, but it would be a tremendous effort. In the original post, I saw WAVE. Remember, the amount you kern the "A" to the "W" is constant for all following letters. I pretty much guarantee you if you pick a kern value for "WA" looking at "WAVE', you will be shocked about the "WA" kern value when the word is "WAR."
You are also not apt to come up with all the pairs needed. I've been setting type for almost 30 years, and something you've never thought of always becomes a problem -- Quick: is there a word using "Yg"? Yes, Ygraine, the name of King Arthur's mom.
As to diacritics, I agree they often need work, and not only the umlaut. Both position and shape matters. The macron should have a height over the letters in keeping with the umlaut, and these should also relate to the other diacritics. I also think the accents over capitals should relate to those over the lower-case letters, though what bothers one person may not bother another. The capital accents in Quadraat have always seemed unfortunate to me. Your mileage may vary.
Another place to look at diacritics is in conjunction with other letters. How about "f" with any of the vowels carrying an umlaut or a grave? Frequently, more f-ligatures are needed -- "f_agrave," f_egrave," "f_udieresus" etc. When they are needed, you usually have to redraw the "f" a bit as well as fooling with the position and spacing of accent.
So while a list might be nice, as a comp I've abandoned any hope of coming up with anything complete, and fix things (when the EULA allows, of course) as they come up. I can't resist: for those of you who have a EULA which prohibits the user from any modification, including kerning, I'll bet a considerable sum I've set a book about some topic that will embarrass your font. A better practice, I think, is to work with your "end-users" and update the fonts from time to time as problems appear and are resolved.
"Froggy" hmmm, now that has some possibilities :-)
I had almost forgotten my favorite English poem for testing type. It has several nonstandard pairings of glyphs is is just plain fun too!
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Charles, the samples we are working on here are not meant to be the basis of a kern test. There are many other good ways of doing that. These samples are meant to help us get a sense of how glyphs are combined in a given language. To help us see patterns we would not imagine otherwise. And so that our designs can be tuned to languages beyond our own.
Chris, I always loved that poem.
Does any body have suggestions about who else to ask so we can add languages? Any volunteers?