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Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Peter: Nice. And what about Raffia Initials? What I wonder though is whether those are a different animal, since they don't seem to be trying to make surfaces; to me it looks like laying down multiple pieces to create the impression of a letter. But maybe they're all on the same continuum.

BTW concerning Quintet, I wonder if Okano realizes how fundamentally different it is to the rest of KABK's output. Looking at the images in the ILT interview I would say that going from that double-pencil "B"* to the shapes in the actual font is a qualitatively huge leap. It's like walking versus flying.

* http://cdn.ilovetypography.com/img/2012/01/img03.jpg

Michael, can you provide examples? Of course it's not impossible that drawing the outlines (as opposed to the bodies) of letters chirographically is old news, but lacking any examples I would have to think you're wrong.

hhp

Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Hrant H Papazian's picture
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David Berlow's picture
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Being the first claim to the invention of napkin-drawing on a surface, I do not think the insignificance of this should be overestimated.

Dave Rowland Schizotype Fonts's picture
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AzizMostafa's picture
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404 - Not Found

Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Peiran Tan's picture
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Definitely look like a treble clef.
This is exactly the way I would draw a treble clef on musical sheets when I compose.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Wow.

hhp

John Savard's picture
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@hrant:
Quickie trivia question: what (mainstream) writing system has glyphs
based (partly) on the shapes of the mouth/tongue/lips when saying the
sound in question?

Korean hangul, of course, although the non-mainstream system of "Visible Speech" is likely known to more people in North America as having this attribute.

Michael Clark's picture
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Joined: 2 Mar 2005 - 12:24pm
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Dates back to the 1600's Hrant. Because of their shape they had to be "drawn" (outline) with a fine cut quill and filled in. The shapes we unachievable with a wide pen, although they were a nod to the Trajan Roman incorporating the nuances of the Uncial.

They were used to "start a verse."

There is a contemporary adaptation in the Chesapeake Corporation logo on my site, typerror.com, if you flip through the lettering section. They are quite popular today amongst practitioners.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Michael, unless you can provide an actual image few people can decide if you're right.

Of the examples I've seen the oldest is Excoffon's (I think). But frankly to me this isn't about who was first; I'd just like to grasp the implications.

hhp

Michael Clark's picture
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Manuscripts are loaded with them. I have given you enough info go look for yourself. Edward Johnston wrote of them, and their history, in the early 1900's so I think that precedes Roger!

Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Correct! Twice.

hhp

Michael Clark's picture
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/72847950/Writing-Illuminating-Lettering-Edward...

I believe Johnston starts on Versals around page 119. This book is from the early 1900's. I believe these pages were done around 1903.

Michael Clark's picture
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So I guess I was not wrong, huh!

Oh, and Zapf and a host of others were doing them before Excoffon. They appear in many books, printed about calligraphers, in the 1800's. The Russians, Estonians and Finnish had a real affection for them.

Michael Clark's picture
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Actually they preceded the 14th century!

Hrant H Papazian's picture
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Thanks for the link. But I have to say that's not the same thing - it just shows the drafting of outlines (which obviously has been happening for centuries). The main idea in this thread (to me) is the free-form chirographic rendering of outlines; sort of how chirographers think of the black, but applied to the outline (which has no thickness). One thing to look for is "funny" crossings of outlines (and not the sort that happens when you're marking the black - like the "o" in Peter's example).

But more potential examples would be great. The thing is if you have a point to make I think you should make the effort to provide evidence. I don't go on a wild-goose chase when I can't even hear the goose.

hhp

Jarrod Beglinger's picture
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 - 3:14pm
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"one's a genius, the other's insane..."

but seriously, i am trying to figure out what a "protoglyph" is. a glyph is a symbol with meaning, of course, according to our very own typowiki. and proto- is a prefix meaning first, earliest, or original. furthermore, in combination with other words, it means - more or less - a foundation or basis for things which come after it or develop from it. e.g., prototype, protolanguage, etc.

are you thinking your inadvertant squiggle has a universality or flexibility to be the basis for a whole - ahem - "set" of glyphs?

jarrod

Mike Diaz's picture
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006 - 12:43am
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I was thinking of a lorentz attractor. If you ask me to explain it I will say its a peek a boo or owl eyes.

Mike

Mike Diaz's picture
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but that's not a proto-thingy :-(

Chris Keegan's picture
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Looks a bit like a mobius strip.

Eben Sorkin's picture
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Are you thinking of a 'flipped' or reversed ductus al la the moebius strip?

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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& on 2 infinity

That or simply "8 is enough"

:-)

ChrisL

Chris Lozos's picture
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004 - 11:00am
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or maybe it is that famous old Hollywood "Hourglass Figure"

ChrisL

Blank's picture
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It looks like one of those lucite high-heeled shoes that strippers wear.

Linda Cunningham's picture
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 - 3:55pm
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Not the last Chippendale's act I saw.... ;-)

Mili Carr's picture
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Mr Escher comes in mind

http://www.mcescher.com/

Norbert Florendo's picture
Joined: 9 Jun 2005 - 2:21pm
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Chiro-notanic protoglyph open stroke G-clef.

Or maybe a cute little butterfly on a breezy day! :-)

AzizMostafa's picture
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Free-Hand Lissajous Figures?!

Gerald Lange's picture
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Hrant

Rather than playing the guessing game, what are you thinking?

Gerald

Alessandro Segalini's picture
Joined: 5 Oct 2005 - 5:14pm
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He is thinking to become a chirographer !
Yeah, get rid of the bouma for g∞d !
Check this out, maybe Aziz is on the run.
Cool protoglyphing doodling by the way !

Lorenza Pavesi's picture
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Are you thinking what I'm thinking? That was the last election' slogan for the Conservatives in England, wasn't it? I remember there was a big billboard near my house with Howard's face and the slogan and someone had sprayed on it "Are you smoking what I'm smoking?".

Sorry, hrant, go ahead. This thread is beginning to read like a thriller. Can't wait to see how it ends.

Ben Archer's picture
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Sorry Hrant, but I only do long distance mind-reading on Thursdays... what are you thinking? Is it about the thick/thin stroke thinning and crossing over itself – like those impossible skidlines on a slippery road sign?

Mike Diaz's picture
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Yah... what is it???

:-) Mikey

R.C.Carpenter's picture
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While testing a pen ... something potentially interesting struck me. Is anybody else thinking what I’m thinking?

Sure. Your pen skips.

What!? That's not it? Okay, why not shelve the guesswork games and "fess up"?

Jason Pagura's picture
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Lemon curry?

Graham Meade's picture
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Can derive 20 of 26 alphabet characters from the thingie.
Warm, cold or Icy ?
And if this is a ball point, the ball is stuffed.

A pre-neolythic Picasso Bic peroid ?

John Nolan's picture
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Joined: 6 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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For Paul - this is my favourite Pinky-ism:
I think so Brain. But me and Pippi Longstocking: what would the children be like?
Oh well, whatever they're like, they'll be loved.

Chris Lozos's picture
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...and the other is insane"

ChrisL

Norbert Florendo's picture
Joined: 9 Jun 2005 - 2:21pm
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> "protoglyph"
Actually I’m not after a glyph ID.

Then it's a model for a glyph yet to be developed, accepted and adapted for use.
But it just looks too familiar to be seen as new.

Conor Nolan's picture
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Don’t stop… Squiggle squiggle — Outhere Brothers (1995)

Nicholas Alexander Gross's picture
Joined: 28 Sep 2005 - 8:54pm
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That, in the past, there were no plurals, rather convention dictated that nouns were the opportunity to 1. trial new pens 2. Or test that the pen they were currently using was still good for another few letters, that's how we developed our modern 's' simply through an historical misunderstanding
you don't have to tell me I got it, both you and I know

--N

Richard Toonkel's picture
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007 - 8:32am
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Please direct me to the correct forum.
I have a ? about fontographer. After all my work of creating my type face I am having no luck with the simple thing of making the space bar work. hopefully it is simple to you.

R

Duncan Robertson's picture
Joined: 21 Nov 2005 - 9:44pm
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proto- |ˌproʊdoʊ| |ˌprəʊtəʊ| (usu. prot- before a vowel)
combining form
original; primitive : prototherian | prototype.
• first; anterior; relating to a precursor : protomartyr | protozoan.
ORIGIN from Greek prōtos ‘first.’

glyph |glif| |glɪf| |glɪf|
noun
1 a hieroglyphic character or symbol; a pictograph : flanges painted with esoteric glyphs.
• strictly, a sculptured symbol (e.g., as forming the ancient Mayan writing system).
• Computing a small graphic symbol.
2 Architecture an ornamental carved groove or channel, as on a Greek frieze.
DERIVATIVES
glyphic |ˈglifik| |ˌglɪfɪk| adjective
ORIGIN late 18th cent. (sense 2) : from French glyphe, from Greek gluphē ‘carving.’

Duncan Robertson's picture
Joined: 21 Nov 2005 - 9:44pm
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Maybe you are thinking about getting into interior decorating...?

Or, maybe you are thinking that if you post a vague question you will get a lot of funny, wrong answers... ?

Richard Toonkel's picture
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007 - 8:32am
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go figure
nothing good to say so trash talk rules

good bye

oh yeah thanks for nothing

Tim Daly's picture
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Joined: 11 Sep 2003 - 9:04am
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Richard,
I think Duncan was posting in response to the thread not your question. I did send you an instant message to suggest you visit the Build forum with your query.
http://typophile.com/forum/6

Tim

Richard Toonkel's picture
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007 - 8:32am
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Thanks

Tim thanks for your advice, but no in reality Duncan could have easily said what you said but no, insults rule. I am not surprised.

Richard