I have heard that it is possible to partly reconstruct a font from a PDF. It involves copy-pasting from the PDF to a text editor. The catch is knowing exactly what to copy from the PDF.

If this holds true I don’t know. In theory it sounds possible.

In theory, it is possible. In practice, it’s like stealing. At least it seems like that to me.

Because it is entirely possible to pull fonts from pdfs (granted, without kerning pairs and other important features) it is causing more and more foundries to forbid us designers from embedding fonts when we send our files off to printers. One foundry, Letterhead Fonts, has even built in copy protection that prevents such embedding. This creates a world of extra work, and is unfortunate. Understandable, though.

Anyway, in my personal opinion, this is the last place in the world I would look for information on how to extract fonts from pdfs.

Hi Michael, I’m not looking for information on how to extract fonts from pdf’s. I sincerely hope it can’t be done. And yes, of course it is stealing.

Nick Cooke

In theory, it is possible. In practice, it’s like stealing. At least it seems like that to me.
But of course. We all hope it’s not possible, that goes without saying.

“Because it is entirely possible to pull fonts from pdfs (granted, without kerning pairs and other important features) it is causing more and more foundries to forbid us designers from embedding fonts”

Paranoia is causing that. If I want a font without paying for it, I’m not going to spend time extracting it from a PDF...I’ll just download it off the internet somewhere.

Nick: It’s software. Therefore, yes, it can be done. Pretty much any software can be cracked/reversed engineered by those willing to figure it out.

Hi folks,
No harm meant, nor did I mean to imply that anyone here was actually going to steal a font by ripping it from a PDF.

aluminum, I happen to agree that it’s kind of a desperate and self-delusional act to think that EULAs that forbid font embedding do any good. For a lively discussion on this subject, check out the lengthy thread here about Letterhead Fonts copy protection scheme. Then go to Letterhead Fonts and see what Chuck, the proprietor, has to say on the issue. He’s written a rather good explanation for his thinking, and one can just feel his pain.

There is a certain breed (I know, I used to be one), somewhat like the Elvis obsessed meter maid recently busted in England, that has a font addiction. They have to have every font that exists. Right and wrong can be rationalized with only a little effort.

The fonts I have seen extracted, were missing so much, I wasn’t really attracted. But what I would worry about if I were a fontmaker is that these files aren’t always labeled, and there are stripped copies of commercial fonts floating around that might make people question the work quality of a designer.

But a person can get a pristine version of almost any font that has been out for a while through normal addict channels, if one is dedicated. So I think the main issue with the .pdf extracts is the quality reflection on the artist.

>I happen to agree that it’s kind of a desperate and self-delusional act to think that EULAs that forbid font embedding do any good.

Well, there are also embedding permissions in the fonts that most reputable applications will abide by - Acrobat, Powerpoint, Word etc., (not sure about Flash) - so it’s not just a EULA issue. Bad people would need to go to some effort to flip the bits to their liking.

I agree there’s some paranoia out there, probably based on actual reported font crimes, but also some vendors see offering extended embedding rights as a way of making a few extra $’s and to that I say best of luck to them.

Also I think LH fonts are on the fringe, and until others follow their lead (I don’t see a line forming) I don’t think they are really part of the equation.

The bottom line is that for people who would pay for fonts anyway
the effort/cost of reconstructing anything remotely usable from a
PDF just doesn’t make sense. If some guy in a shack is turned on by
doing it, who cares.

> some vendors see offering extended embedding rights

What’s typically the premium one has to pay for that?

hhp

That’s what I thought Hrant – It would cost more in hours than it would to buy the font. It’s just not worth the effort trying to reconstruct it.

Nick Cooke

It’s not paranoia, but a mistaken believe that whenever one has an economic interest one has a legal right, and further, that the law must come to one’s aid by making an act that deprives one of potential profits a crime.

The extraction of fonts from pdf, and I suppose that’s possible, would not be a crime (or even an infringement); however, some legislatures may decide to make the use of unlicensed fonts a violation of the owner’s rights — most typically a civil matter.

I am curious to know whether it is possible to ‘extract’ fonts from pdf documents. I can’t remember where I heard it, but I seem to remember it may be. Sorry, I can’t be any vaguer than that!

Whenever you open a PDF file, the Adobe Acrobat reader (or any other PDF viewer) “extracts” or “copies” the fonts embedded into this PDF file and uses these fonts, as if these fonts had been installed beforehand.

If fonts were protected by “copy”-right and if it were illegal to “copy” fonts, then by opening a PDF file with Adobe Acrobat you would make an illegal “copy” of the fonts embedded into this PDF file.

The Adobe reader may be regarded as a “font extracting hacker tool”: Any font embedded into a PDF is automatically extracted — with no questions asked.

The only people on earth that pay an embedding license are corporations. That’s it.

There are a few tools to extract fonts from the TUG side of the world... haven’t tried but you and I know it sucks.

Its what Hrant says... foundries trying to make a few bucks...

Actually Simon said that - I’m just trying to find out how much. :-)
Is Tiffany here? She spends a lot at Emigre - she must know.

> by opening a PDF file with Adobe Acrobat
> you would make an illegal “copy”

Who says that’s not illegal? In fact if for example you read the Emigre EULA it becomes clear that doing a convert-to-outlines in Illustrator is illegal! But the companies decide when to hunt somebody down and when to look the other way.

hhp

>What’s typically the premium one has to pay for that?

Don’t know, but I have a feeling the pricing may not always be transparent.

>Is Tiffany here? She spends a lot at Emigre - she must know.

I was going to suggest Tiffany too. ;-)

Typophile: the Transparenter.

hhp

I was going to suggest Tiffany too. ;-)

Um, I think she’s a little busy right now.... ;-)

I completely forgot! :-)
Three days ago it was...

hhp

Who says that’s not illegal? In fact if for example you read the Emigre EULA it becomes clear that doing a convert-to-outlines in Illustrator is illegal

A breach of contract may be a lot of things, but generally not “illegal”. Our civilization depends on it.

I have had some thoughts about a way to remedy the illegal distribution and use of fonts. Acually it can be summed up in one word: iTunes. Think about it: If it’s possible to run a DRM system on music files that only play on authorized computers, then why not font files? Something like Linotype FontExplorer is already half way there. It has the shop, now ’just’ add DRM. I could see MyFonts doing something like this. What do you say?

Apple has just started moving away from DRM. And for good reasons. DRM will only hurt the users who have bought the software (music, fonts and so on). DRM didn’t stop illegal sharing of music. Why should it be different with fonts?

Like most anything, you both can & can’t “steal” a front from a PDF. Early on, there was no protection. Later, around the time of Acrobat 5, protection became better. I assume it’s gotten even better with later versions. I tried it just for the hell of it back in the late 1990s, extracting a font I already owned. Aside from the “no metrics,” I probably spent an hour figuring out what to write off. Metrics add a day, right? Maybe a high school kid will do it for fun — but they’ll likely get the metrics wrong. For anybody else, it costs over twice as much to steal it as to buy. BTW, I tried this after Acrobat 5 or so (with protection) & couldn’t extract it, but all that probably shows is my level of programming skill, which isn’t very high. If you can break into a high-security computer, you can probably steal a font — in fact, you can probably break into a foundry’s computers & steal the whole library.

BTW, not being allowed to embed a font stops it’s use for bookwork.

Clauses:

While DRM is possible, the point is that it is completely breakable. And, typically, always is.

Well, every “DRM” system is breakable, in worst case using analog tools. With music, the principle is “if you can hear it, you can copy it”. That’s obvious. The simplest way is to attach a digital recorder to the Audio Out port of your computer.

With fonts, the same principle applies, by the way of “if you can see it, you can copy it”. The most brute-force method is scan and autotrace, a bit more refined method would be convert to outlines and dissect into a font again.

There are some legal implications of that. I hope that I will be able to collect some data and talk about it, perhaps at ATypI TypeTech.

A.

Early on, clauses said... I have heard that it is possible to partly reconstruct a font from a PDF. It involves copy-pasting from the PDF to a text editor.

I’m sure it must be more complicated than that. What you are describing is text extraction rather than font extraction. ;-)

Later, fontplayer said... The fonts I have seen extracted, were missing so much...

Sir, yours is the first eyewitness report I have ever read... So it’s not just a paranoid theory. Apparently there is also a piece of software out there that can purportedly reconstruct a Flash .fla file from just a .swf file! I can imagine that the results of that are just as paltry...

It’s not paranoia, but a mistaken believe that whenever one has an economic interest one has a legal right, and further, that the law must come to one’s aid by making an act that deprives one of potential profits a crime.

Typequake, do you own a small font foundry that in spite of lots of recognition from designers and the media, has to put up with many, many instances of its fonts (i.e., its livelihood) being pirated? I’m just curious. :-)

Mr. Cordoba:

“Sir, yours is the first eyewitness report I have ever read… So it’s not just a paranoid theory.”

Extraction of fonts from PDF files is not a mare’s nest. For example, I extracted fonts from PDF files using my own extraction tools specifically designed for the purpose of documenting inhouse font forgeries not available on the market and made by big companies (e.g. UPS). However, at Typophile, for reasons of censorship, it is not allowed to describe the techniques of extracting fonts from PDF files.

Mr. Twardoch:

“if you can see it, you can copy it”.

Correct. We can go a step ahead and say: Seeing a font proves that Adobe Acrobat extracted the font from the PDF file. What is regarded as illegal by Adobe, namely to extract fonts, is done by Adobe with its own font extracting tool Adobe Acrobat.

For example, by the German copyright act, it is illegal to make a “permanent or temporary reproduction of a computer program by any means and in any form, in part or in whole” (see § 69c UrhG). If fonts were software (Adobe says so. I don’t), then the sale of Adobe Acrobat would be illegal, since it is a font extracting tool.

Adobe Acrobat would be entirely useless, if it did not extract the fonts from PDF files, because this would mean that you could not see the embedded fonts. Since you would have to use substitute fonts such as “Courier” for reading PDF files with the consequence that Adobe would not sell any longer its big money-making Acrobat cash cow, if it did not extract the fonts, Adobe does what it calls illegal and extracts them from PDF files.

Ricardo,

I’m an academic. I don’t own or operate a foundry, I don’t design faces, and I have no interest in copying or extracting fonts. It doesn’t make my opinion less valid than anyone else’s. On the contrary, my point was that a legal right can’t be established simply from the fact that one has an economic interest. Therefore, if anything, my opinion is more objective — but I do sympathize.

Nick,

The answer is a simple “Yes, it can be done.”
Followed by, “Yes, it is done.”

However, the people who extract these fonts do not care that the kerning pairs are not part of the extraction. Some folks do it just because they want to own the font, will never use it.

BTW, this is one of the reasons that Chuck Davis of Letterhead has his “new-style” of open font which CANNOT be embedded into a pdf.

And P.S. You may have read about it here from me, when I implored someone to “flatten” their pdf so the type would be a graphic and not a font! (And therefore, impossible to extract.)

The fonts are being extracted more and more. It’s actually surprisingly easy. Those who extract fonts probably never purchase fonts.

OurType fonts have no embedding restrictions, and if we would apply them, we would most likely punish our real clients.

Extracting fonts for further sampling - is another related issue...

Eastern European countries and Russia are a paradise for illegal and ripped-off fonts. At the moment those countries are literally uncontrollable: there is no legal frame regarding copyright infringement, and above all, there is no culture of purchasing software or fonts.

Co Cotorobai
OurType

> Those who extract fonts probably never purchase fonts.

This is the key realization, but sadly seems to escape many foundries.

hhp

I implored someone to “flatten” their pdf so the type would be a graphic and not a font! (And therefore, impossible to extract.)

And impossible to search.

>I implored someone to “flatten” their pdf so the type would be a graphic and not a font! (And therefore, impossible to extract.)

>And impossible to search.

Microsoft’s XPS actually does this for ’no embedding’ fonts - generating a static bitmap for the text to preserve some level of font fidelity. I believe the Unicode codepoints stick around allowing for searching, but I could be wrong.

Here’s a trick: make a PDF where the text is rendered to a bitmap, but have a layer of invisible, searchable text on top, set in Adobe Sans/Serif to match the set widths, and when the searched word is highlighted you [might] even get a box on top of the bitmap rendering.

hhp

The Adobe funded Octavo CD-ROM books worked this way, if I recall correctly.

The guys aren’t even old and they already took my idea! ;-)

hhp

That’s because ideas aren’t subject to copyright...

> “The fonts are being extracted more and more. It’s actually surprisingly easy.”

Mrs. Cotorobai:

What makes you think so? I can’t confirm that it is “actually surprisingly easy”.

In the good old days, there was only one font format and one PS and one PDF file format, but today, there are different types of font formats and hence different types of PS and PDF formats, which makes things very tricky.

For example, extracting all 22 Akzidenz Grotesk fonts from this “stone-age” file

http://www.sanskritweb.net/fontdocs/ag1992ps.zip

is “actually surprisingly easy” even for “bloody laymen”, since no programming skill at all is needed here.

But today’s PostScript and PDF files are much trickier so that a high degree of proficiency in computer programming is required.

““flatten” their pdf so the type would be a graphic and not a font! (And therefore, impossible to extract.)”

As stated, that also makes PDFs rather useless as electronic decouments and, besides, it’s fairly trivial to get the vector outlines and import them back into a font format anyways.

To Uli —

yes, one can get a better or a poorer result after extracting (depending on one’s skills). The ’easy’ method consists of 5 steps (which I am not going to describe here for obvious reasons). Well, we must not argue about the ’easy’ part; purchasing a font online seems much easier to me.

Co Cotorobai
OurType

> “purchasing a font online seems much easier to me.”

Purchasing fonts may seem to be easier. But copying fonts instead of buying them is regarded as easier, especially by font sellers. For instance, the Akzidenz Grotesk copyable from the above file was copied by Linotype without purchasing it and is now sold by Linotype under a new name. Many font sellers regard it as easier to copy fonts instead of buying them.

Yes, saving $29 was the key to that dastardly deed...
I’m sorry, but you’re a dumb-a*s.

hhp

Uli: What is the name of the font that Linotype allegedly copied and renamed?

Bruno Steinert had a dream of making it easier to license fonts than pirate them hence Font Explorer X. Price probably comes into it too, but quality, service after the sale, upgrades etc., play into this as well.

“In the good old days, there was only one font format...”

Uli

That would have been Bitstream’s, correct? There was a time when only certain fonts could work on certain computers/printers (as someone postulated here as a solution). Proprietary economics is actually how type had been sold since the beginning of the stand alone foundry. And by foundry I mean REAL foundry, ca 16th century.

Adobe’s unlicensing of the PS1 format was unprecedented (and killed off traditional protection schemes—and Bitstream’s competitive format, which was the idea). The problems of copying, theft, extracting, etc., are a natural extension of the fact that the software tools (Fontographer, FontLab) used for type design rely on unlicensed font formats.

Has any digital type foundry ever paid one cent in tribute to Adobe, Apple, or Microsoft for piggy-backing on their free font formating? Hell no. And why would they? It’s free. Still, when you opt into the system, you have to live by its rules. That, or come up with your own system.

Gerald

I was posting to try to stop the italics, but I guess I didn’t figure out what tag was left open (not “i” or “cite”).

But also to say, yes it’s possible to rip fonts off from a PDF. There are a number of limitations to this, and there are easier ways to steal an intact font. BTW, it’s certainly my understanding that stealing fonts from PDFs like this *is* illegal in the USA and most western European countries. Of course, I’m not a lawyer, and you should talk to your own lawyer before doing anything like that.

Cheers,

T

“In the good old days, there was only one font format…”

I’m from those good old days - and even in the beginning - there was more than one format for MAC (I cannot speak about IBM and IBM Clones [Dell, Gateway, etc.[) but from Adobe we had Type 1 and from Bitstream and most others Type 3, or as some called it Type C. When Adobe allowed others to use their Type 1 method - it was a little easier. Some manufacturers took back their Type 3s and replaced them for us as Type 1s. Others were out of business. Every now and then I do a job and a Type 3 (or C) font emerges and cannot rip — out comes Fontographer to change it to a Type 1 and therefore usable.

Meanwhile back to “flatten out the type” — I was asking the manufacturers of their own type to do this for their initial PDFs when showing a new face. It is amazing that when a manufacturer wants to release the new designs, they put out “embedded” fonts in their PDF — and the Russians jump on this and immediately extract it. Right now there are so many bad versions going around — in some ways it is quite funny. And I always hope that if anyone picks up one of these and wants to use it — they will go and buy the original. (Less points per letter and kerning pairs worked out!)

> I was posting to try to stop the italics, but I guess I didn’t figure out what tag was left open (not “i” or “cite”).

Typequake left out the / after citing “Who says that’s not illegal? In fact if for example you read the Emigre EULA it becomes clear that doing a convert-to-outlines in Illustrator is illegal”

I think only he or a moderator can fix it.

I was posting to try to stop the italics, but I guess I didn’t figure out what tag was left open (not “i” or “cite”).

Thomas, i can never catch these problems unless pointed out because i use Firefox, which doesn’t display tags the same way some other browsers do. If anyone ever finds one of these unclosed tags, you can always contact me or one of the moderators to fix this without resorting to code hacks. >^p

I don’t think I left out anything — the post looked good on my Firefox too.

> I don’t think I left out anything — the post looked good on my Firefox too.

I viewed the source code and the / was not there. Paul fixed it.
I wouldn’t bandy about such accusations without cause.
; )

Jftr & fwiw, I’m not sure it fits in this thread, but you all would probably be surprised at the amount of money spent on fonts by font addicts (often referred to here as font pirates). Every single one I have close contact with have spent at least a small fortune on fonts, never to actually use them for anything. Go figure.

>never to actually use them for anything.

I suppose they tell you same thing about their extensive pornographic magazine collection too ;-)

gee, yes sii - they do

LOL

“In the good old days, there was only one font format…”

“That would have been Bitstream’s, correct?”

Mr. Lange:

Since the topic of this thread is “PDF font extraction”, I was only thinking of the oldest versions of Adobe Acrobat Distiller which generated PDF files embedding entire Type 1 PFB files as complete and unmodified PFA files (which may be directly opened with Fontlab and similar programs) in the same manner as the PostScript files generated by the old PS drivers used at that time (e.g. QMS 800).

Bitstream’s format could not be embedded into PDF files.

You will most certainly know that Peter Karow’s interesting 455-page book “Digital Schriften” describes in detail the oldest font formats, e.g. Ikarus, Intellifont etc., but unfortunately it only mentions the Bitstream format incidenter (i.e. without technical details).

> I suppose they tell you same thing about their extensive pornographic magazine collection too ;-)

Those are reportedly for the articles, but half the font-addicts I know are females, so who knows?...

Anyway, in my personal opinion, this is the last place in the world I would look for information on how to extract fonts from pdfs.

:-))) I think so, too.

Nick Cooke

No longer any edit?

I wanted to say that this is the reason I asked the question. I am now fairly confident that it would be pretty difficult, (not to mention financially unviable) to produce working OpenType fonts extracted from the pdf.

Nick Cooke

Sorry to write to a so old discussion thread.

I have programmed a tool myself this afternoon, not to steal the fonts but to be able to change some incorrect information on some documents from which we have lost the originals.

The tool works fully automatic and extracts the subset of fonts embedded in a pdf file and converts them to trueType fonts.

Questions are,
Should I make the tool public available?
Would it be useful for anyone?
What do you think about an online tool, where you upload the pdf and download a zip with the subsets of fonts?
Would I be doing something illegal?

Thanks for the advise.

nobody

Two days late, Troll.

no you shouldn’t make it available

No reason for name-calling, Rainer.

Nobody the tool sounds like something which no one, barring your extreme example, would ever need. If people have proper license for the fonts to begin with they will never need to use your tool, they’d simply need to contact the foundry.

Tiff is the lady!!

How is it possible to check a font to verifiy its not an extract ?

If the font has kerning tables, it probably was not extracted.

Otherwise, you could email it to the foundry and ask them to look. Then again, if it’s a legit font, it should have come from them to begin with…

I know there are ways to pull embedded goodies out of any sort of file, but the question is, if you only desired the typeface to make an adjustment, or you really want a font for a few words, why not just open the pages in illustrator, grab the glyph outlines and play around with those.

I mean, we might think it’s barbaric to deal with a pageful of outlines glyphs and have to move them around manually…but wasn’t that what typesetting was anyways?

It’s saved me in the past (where I didn’t have a font available, or the means to get it because I was in a different town and only had the PDF)

It’s not pretty, but it can be done successfully!

Sometime you just use the font of your client/agency… but anyway i’m not here to talk about legal issue and the forum don’t work for the police.

What i would like to know is : what software can be used to look at kerning (i don’t use/have font software like FontLab. etc.). Can i see this with FontExplorer or something like this ?

Free trial of one of the FontLab tools might be your best bet? Or maybe TTX?

Just check for negative kerning between A and V in Indesign. Just about everybody ends up kerning those.

If the font has kerning tables, it probably was not extracted.

I’m not sure that this is a good indicator ... most PDF-extracted fonts I’ve seen had been run through some kind of automatic kerning software. Some have OT features. Heck, some people even seem to draw additional glyphs that were missing in the PDF. Their time must be really worth nothing.

I think a digital signature may be the most reliable sign that a font is in its original state. But not everybody signs their fonts.

im going to be honest here: you are charging too much for fonts. all i wanted was a font to mimic a famous tabloid so that i could post a funny picture on a forum. however, when i finally found the font it used, it was $480 to get the font pack and the proxy site that wanted to sell it to me had a huge overhead as it was $580. now, im a home user and no home user is going to pay that outrageous price. i know you are targeting commercial entities so really, you had this coming. i was honestly willing to plunk down $5 for something i would probably only use once or twice but no, now you wont even be getting that. you have only yourselves to blame for this.

thanks for the fonts,
Gravis

name                      type     emb sub uni object ID
------------------------------- -------- --- --- --- ---------
FEIEKC+Interstate-Regular       Type 1C  yes yes yes     60  0
FEIFAJ+EldoradoText-Roman       Type 1C  yes yes yes     54  0
FEIFFO+EldoradoText-RomanSC     Type 1C  yes yes yes     64  0
FEIFNI+Interstate-Light         Type 1C  yes yes yes     80  0
FEIIGG+Interstate-Bold          Type 1C  yes yes yes    130  0
FEIPAI+Rhode-BlackNormal        Type 1C  yes yes yes     87  0
FEIPGP+Rhode-MediumExtended     Type 1C  yes yes yes     71  0
FEIPLE+Rhode-SemiboldCondensed  Type 1C  yes yes yes     78  0
FEJAAK+Rhode-SemiboldWide       Type 1C  yes yes yes     75  0
FEJAFP+Rhode-BlackWide          Type 1C  yes yes yes    107  0
FEJAKE+Rhode-MediumCondensed    Type 1C  yes yes yes     94  0
FEJAOI+Rhode-BlackCondensed     Type 1C  yes yes yes     97  0
FEJBDO+Rhode-BoldWide           Type 1C  yes yes yes    122  0
FEJBKE+Rhode-MediumWide         Type 1C  yes yes yes    110  0
FEJBPJ+Rhode-BoldExtended       Type 1C  yes yes yes    114  0
FEJCEO+Rhode-BoldNormal         Type 1C  yes yes yes    126  0
FEIJIE+Interstate-LightItalic   Type 1C  yes yes yes     40  0
FEINAL+Interstate-Black         Type 1C  yes yes yes     35  0
FEJEBE+Rhode-MediumNormal       Type 1C  yes yes yes     28  0
FEJEFK+Rhode-SemiboldNormal     Type 1C  yes yes yes     23  0
FEJJHO+Rhode-BlackExtended      Type 1C  yes yes yes     18  0
FEJLPL+Rhode-BoldCondensed      Type 1C  yes yes yes     13  0
FEJOKA+Rhode-SemiboldExtended   Type 1C  yes yes yes      8  0

Gravis, if you are not used to paying money for good fonts then that means you won’t know how to use them well anyway.

Sorry, not impressed!

I’m going to be honest here, Gravis...your ’need to post a funny picture on a forum’ argument won’t likely change anyone’s mind to cut their prices by 400% and start losing money in the process.

That said, it’s a concept that’s been tossed about now again...a ’typesetting’ license for one-off uses. It has some credence. Of course, for just making a goofy non-commercial JPG to impress your friends, one would assume a screen shot of the word set via the foundry’s online typesetting tool would have not only sufficed, but been the quickest way to accomplish what you wanted to do.

Yes, the idea that you were forced to pirate is nonsense. All the bravado you worked up along the way is likewise.

Darrel, you make some good points about one-off rendering...

It’s really not my fault I stole that Porsche the other day. I only wanted to drive it for a week, but they said I would have to buy the whole(!) thing for 50.000 bucks! Can you believe that? They forced my to steal it!

Yes, Gravis - I’m sure if you’d spent hundreds of hours creating something you’d be quite happy to sell it for $5. That makes good commercial sense, especially if it isn’t popular. Who wouldn’t want to work for 1 cent an hour?

Nick Cooke

>>
Yes, Gravis - I’m sure if you’d spent hundreds of hours creating something you’d be quite happy to sell it for $5. That makes good commercial sense, especially if it isn’t popular. Who wouldn’t want to work for 1 cent an hour?

Nick Cooke
<<

Yes, Gravis has convinced me!
My new rate for Custom Truetype hinting is $0.25 / hour!

Jason C

(just kidding, BTW)

I’m going to play devil’s advocate, but before the dogpile gets too deep...

The Porche analogy is always fun, but alas, we’re talking about physical objects vs. digital copies. The analogies can get problematic. It’s the difference between shoplifting a book and photocopying pages of the book at the library for research.

As for spending hundreds of hours creating something and selling it for $5, there’s definitely an argument for that if there’s a mass market. It’s not an hourly billing, but a product that can easily be resold many times. So, Gravis, if you’re saying that a $5 price point would increase sales a thousand fold, perhaps there’s some logic to that. But I’m guessing that’s not the case*.

* though that would be an interesting study...two equal typefaces different in form only...one sold for $5 one sold for $500...would the first outsell the latter more than 100 to 1?

The Porche analogy is always fun, but alas, we’re talking about physical objects vs. digital copies.

Sure, these are different things. I was just commenting on the “I was forced to do it”, not on the type of goods. That’s a different story discussed many times before on Typophile.

Darrel, that is a problem that needs to be overcome. Fonts must be thought of as a tangible object.

“Thanks for the fonts”? Not only was poor Gravis forced to steal, he was forced to be snide about it. Boo hoo. Yet another self-righteous teenager.

There’s no way that a single weight of any display font ever cost $480, much less $580. Single display fonts tend to cost between $10 and $30. And where does this mysterious markup come from? Why wouldn’t you take the lower price, if it was ever quoted as such? There isn’t a “wholesale” price that gets marked up by the only available outlet; it doesn’t work that way. Forced to pay higher prices, too. ;(

Home users would probably be going to the popular font sites to make their purchases, if they were legitimately willing to pay at all. And once there, they would find a range of prices on a wide selection of products. Choices all around.

The entire thing is nonsense, and a weak excuse for file sharing. Whether it’s music, fonts or other software, it’s really just ignorance, entitlement and denial that keeps you from acknowledging the hard work that goes into any of these things.

Fonts must be thought of as a tangible object.

I am not sure. When Rhapsody or other similar services rents music instead of licensing it like iTunes does it’s a different business model. Like renting a Hotel room. Then it’s a service. Certainly these is no equivalent that I know of in type today, but there might be and the possibility of the model existing makes me think that there really could be a variety of valid and ethical ways of thinking about the font business.

I was very happy to buy the El ten Eleven (helvetica movie soundtrack) as a DRM free uncompressed FLAC file. The fact that they made it possible to do that endeared them to me. My loyalty to their ’Brand’ is higher now.

So while I think Gravis’ ideas about font licensing are sheer lunacy and delusion more or less, I do think that it absolutely behooves the industry think seriously about new flexibility in order better master the social and technological landscape - for straightforward business reasons.

Of course this is high minded talk which short on substance. And I admit it.

“Darrel, that is a problem that needs to be overcome. Fonts must be thought of as a tangible object.”

No. That only harms and muddies the argument. IP concepts need to be understood and respected. That’s the key.

As Eben hints at, Gravis’ arguments are silly and easily dismissed. You don’t want the industry’s counter-arguments to be as silly and easily dismissed as his (the RIAA is a good example of fighting silly arguments with equally silly counter-arguments)

There’s no way that a single weight of any display font ever cost $480, much less $580.

It sounds to me like Gravis found House Industries and wanted one font from a “package.” House Industries only sells it by the package.... hence the hefty price.

Gravis, many times when I’ve helped folks ID a typeface (that they only need for a few words) and they can’t afford the type - they’ve asked me to set the type and send them a jpg. They are stealing and I’m still typesetting. It works. I’m sure there are others out there that have never minded giving a word or two or three out in graphic form to help someone. I’ve received many thank yous, a wedding invitation to a big to-do in Utah and folks that have now tried to help others.

The world still goes round.

They may be infringing, but they are not “stealing”.