Fontographer: Type by design (in PDF format)

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Ramiro Espinoza's picture
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Joined: 1 Aug 2002 - 9:32am
Fontographer: Type by design (in PDF format)
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Here you can download “Fontographer: Type by design” in PDF format:

http://web.that.com.br/will/type/

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Big news for a lot of anxious people.

Is this legal? Anyway, if the publisher of the print version didn’t think they could make money on a reprint, then they probably don’t care. On the other hand, they could have gained some positive exposure by releasing the PDFs themselves, maybe even selling the book in PDF form — FontLab does that with their manuals. So a small lesson for MIS Press.

BTW, it’s interesting that the text is text, not image. That might mean OCR was done, which would make it more work. Or maybe somebody provided the original digital files? One clue would be the body font: from what I remember Moye had modified Goudy’s Italian Old-Style (giving the “y” a longer tail), and an OCR scheme wouldn’t have that (unless the person had that special font)… And the PDFs seem to be using the non-Moye short tailed version.

hhp

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Jos
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002 - 8:34pm
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Ive been looking for something like this for a long time!

Seems like this is the only reference book available for Fontographer. Why is this? Is anyone else supicious? Why are there so conspicously few typrographic software programs? And why is it that the main one (Fontographer) hasnt been updated for the best part of a decade and is no longer distibuted by Macromedia? Why is there only one(?) reference manual available for it and why has its publisher stoppped publishing it and mysteriously refuses to pass on the rights etc? Is there some kind of conspiracy going on? The truth must be out there…?

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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No conspiracy that I can see, just that fonts are worth close to nothing these days. Why? Partly *because* of Fontographer (the so-called “democratization” of type design), but maybe also because their file-size is so small. Some people also blame a certain low perceived value among the public (the alphabet is free, blahblahblah), but I’ve started to think that such “high-level” cultural stuff is a side-effect, not a cause.

hhp

Jos's picture
Jos
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002 - 8:34pm
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BTW Muchas Gracias Ramiro!

I dont know Hrant, I still think its a bit suspicious. Democratization is a threat to some, especially large corporations to whom it represents a general lack of control. You’d think there would be a lot of demand for a program like Fontographer, after all most of us still use it right? Enough demand for the continued developement of it at least? Why is large corporation not acting like large corporation and going where money is? Does Adobe have a font developer program? Not that I know of(?) Arent they one of the biggest names in digital typography AND software developement? hmm…

(hope this doesnt sound like paranoia, its just something thats always bugged me)

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> Democratization is a threat to some

Actually, I think that in the pig bicture Democracy
has essentially become the best weapon of Capitalism.

hhp

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Jos
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002 - 8:34pm
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I think theres a lot of truth in that, however I’m not sure the likes of Bertelsmann, Sony Music, EMI etc would agree with you…

j botts's picture
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Joined: 28 Feb 2003 - 12:51pm
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Sadly, the pdf is no longer at the link posted. Could someone please link to the pdf again so i might download a copy of this text.

Ramiro Espinoza's picture
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Joined: 1 Aug 2002 - 9:32am
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This italian site is working! Enjoy this great book…

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/dtp/papers/type_by_design/manuale.htm

Stuart Sandler's picture
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Joined: 9 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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There is an entire saga surrounding Mr. Moyes book of which I believe the story goes something like this, anybody who has first hand information, please contribute …

I believe all of the publishing rights to the book are still owned by MIS Press. Since the time of its publication MIS Press was absorbed by Hungry Minds and now Wiley Publishing and Wiley has no intention of selling them back or reprinting the book.

This puts Mr. Moye in a bad situation since he doesn’t legally own the content and cannot buy the rights to the book back.

I had tried many times to contact Mr. Moye and he blacklisted me from his e-mail list apparently not interested in discussing the matter at all.

I would genuinely like to see a follow up to this book and even a re-release since the information the book contains is as useful now as it was when it was originally published.

Stuart :D

Ramiro Espinoza's picture
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Joined: 1 Aug 2002 - 9:32am
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I believe Mr Moye has to adapt “Fontographer: type…” to our days. If he wrote “Fontlab: Type by design” it would be a great successful.

Alan Dague-Greene's picture
Joined: 7 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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What’s to stop users like us from doing just that? If we pool together and collect the knowledge, maybe it could be pulled off. One or two people to do the layout, ten or more people sending in tips/tricks/methods and screenshots, one or two people to edit, and follow an outline agreed upon by those in the know. It could be PDF-only, and might be a good refresher course even for the die-hards.

Stuart Sandler's picture
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Joined: 9 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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Funny you should mention that, that was my intention with Font School — http://www.fontschool.com

I have prepared much of the sitemap I’d be happy to share but there is so much content that needs to be written it has become and overwhelming project.

My goal is to repurpose the best parts of the Moye book and adapt that to the working environments of both Fontograper and Font Lab. Unfortunately do to my lack of OS, I am still deeply into Fontographer and don’t know much about FontLab.

Any suggestions?
Stuart :D

Alan Dague-Greene's picture
Joined: 7 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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Yes, it would be a daunting task, but think about how many people spend so much time helping each other here. A little here and a little there may add up faster than you’d think.

It seems like there could be two distinct efforts: one to tackle the technical, application-specific workflow, and the other to address the design issues, like making properly proportioned small caps, kerning sensibly, etc. Personally, I would be more interested in the former, as the latter is often very subjective, so forums like this perhaps better serve that realm.

Chris Wadsworth's picture
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Joined: 6 Oct 2003 - 9:08pm
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It’s gone!

As I’m new to this forum it looks like I missed the link for this essential read — by almost a year!

Anyone know where it is available???

Ricardo Cordoba's picture
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Joined: 8 Jul 2003 - 11:00am
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Chris, maybe it’s gone from the link at the very beginning of this thread, but you can still find it here, as noted by Ramiro’s post (in the middle of this thread):

http://link_removed_by_request

Thomas Phinney's picture
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Joined: 3 Sep 2002 - 11:00am
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Guys, this is reproduced without permission of the copyright-holder, and is illegal. I know that the book is out of print, but do you think that makes it right to pirate it?

T

Jos's picture
Jos
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002 - 8:34pm
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Personally, I don’t have a problem with it at all

Daniel Weaver's picture
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Joined: 26 Aug 2003 - 4:14pm
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Thanks Thomas, Isn’t the goal of this site to promote type and its designers and protect intellectual property through education. Intellectual property theift is a big problem world-wide. Dan

Jos's picture
Jos
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002 - 8:34pm
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The-book-is-out-of-print!

You’re asking me to DENY MYSELF AN OPPORTUNITY for the sake not even of moral, but legal rectitude?

Its one thing not to take an opportunity, thats available on the condition that you pay for it, without paying for it. Its totally another thing to deny that opportunity to yourself, only because no mechanism exists for you to pay for it.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> do you think that makes it right to pirate it?

When a situation is unreasonable, circumventions like this are necessary.

hhp

John Hudson's picture
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Joined: 21 Dec 2002 - 11:00am
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A couple of points:

Copyright law varies from country to country, and in many jurisdictions, notably in most of Europe, it is considered fair use to make a copy of a work for your own personal use. This means that it would be legal in some jurisdictions for you to go to a library and photocopy the entirety of Fontographer: type by design.

However, I’m not aware of any jurisdiction in which it is legal to publish, i.e. to make public, a work without obtaining rights from the copyright holder. Making a PDF version of a book available on the Internet for other people to view and download is not the same thing as making a copy of the book for your own personal use: it is publishing. The fact that a book is out of print does not mean that it is out of copyright, and it is neither legal nor ethical to publish someone else’s work without permission.

Yes, Moye’s book is out of print, but that doesn’t mean it is not available. Copies show up in second hand bookshops, on Ebay, etc.

Thomas Phinney's picture
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Joined: 3 Sep 2002 - 11:00am
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Additionally, I should point out that it’s my understanding that Stephen Moye is working on a new version of the book.

Is everyone here who is pirating it promising they will either destroy all copies or rush out and buy a copy of the new one as soon as it comes out? You’d have to do that even if it’s just a reprint of the existing one, of course, to make your current actions even vaguely ethical (they’d still be illegal, of course).

T

Chris Wadsworth's picture
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Joined: 6 Oct 2003 - 9:08pm
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Thomas, I promise to buy the book the first time I see it in a store. In fact I looked for this book extensively about 18 months ago to no avail!

I think you have to be realistic about these things, yes it’s illegal but I’m not denying Moye or his publisher profits as I’m not in a position to purchase their book in the first place. If you are correct in your knowledge that there will be a new book out in the future then I would be very pleased for the opportunity to own a copy.

Regards from Aotearoa — land of the long white cloud

Ricardo Cordoba's picture
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Joined: 8 Jul 2003 - 11:00am
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News of a possible new edition of Fontographer: Type by Design and how the rights to the book reverted to its author can be found here:

http://typographi.ca/000600.php#000600

Thomas, Dan, John: it wasn’t my intention to promote book piracy. But I, too, searched for this book and ended up finding a copy in the library, and resorted to photocopying the first three chapters. As far as I know, the website where the PDF version is posted isn’t charging any money for viewing the PDFs — how different from the library is that? And it’s not even a good PDF, as parts of the book seem to have been scanned with OCR software, so that there are typos — and those sections don’t use the same font as the book, so the text doesn’t justify properly, etc. If the book was available somewhere, at a reasonable price (not the 200+ dollars they are asking for on some websites, which I can’t afford!), I’d buy it in a second.