H&Js, especially Js

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Yves Peters's picture
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Joined: 7 Nov 2002 - 11:00am
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Chorus goes something like: “A town called Alice, ooh ooh yea-eah”
(with lots of guitars and a poppy beat).

Eduardo Omine's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 6:08am
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Eduardo Omine's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 6:08am
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> “A town called Alice, ooh ooh yea-eah”

Hehe. Something funny for you (scroll down).

Yves Peters's picture
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Joined: 7 Nov 2002 - 11:00am
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Allright allright, I misheard… If our lead singer knew
about this, he’d fire me on the spot! Misquoting The Jam…
argh!

M. Alyce Barker's picture
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Joined: 26 Jan 2004 - 10:14pm
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Being compared to a town called Malice doesn’t seem so bad when you consider the alternative…

Misheard Lyrics:
Time is short and life is cruel
and its up to us to change this Tart called Alice
Correct Lyrics:
Time is short and life is cruel
and its up to us to change this Town called Malice

Sing it, Yves! :-)

Nick Shinn's picture
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Joined: 8 Jul 2003 - 11:00am
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Kent’s values are close to what I use.
However, I won’t hesitate to horizontally scale a line a few percentage points, and/or tracking units, to get a good-looking paragraph/page.

Yves Peters's picture
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Joined: 7 Nov 2002 - 11:00am
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Nah, I’ll stick to what I do best and provide the poppy beat
(and maybe some “oo-oo-oohs”)

M. Alyce Barker's picture
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Joined: 26 Jan 2004 - 10:14pm
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Eduardo, I really like that site. From there, in the same vein:

“White Rabbit”
Misheard Lyrics:
Tell them a hooker and a smoking character
Has given you the call.
Correct Lyrics:
Tell ‘em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call.

Nick Shinn's picture
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Joined: 8 Jul 2003 - 11:00am
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The Jam song puns Nevile Shute’s 1950s novel “A Town Called Alice” (Alice Springs, Australia).

James Montalbano's picture
Joined: 18 Jun 2003 - 11:00am
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Ah, but the grandaddy of all mistaken lyrics sites is:

http://www.kissthisguy.com/

As in the Purple Haze lyric “Scuse me while I kiss the sky”

J's picture
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Joined: 30 Mar 2004 - 5:59am
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This is a great thread. Good practical information about H&J from Kent Lew and others.
William Berkson said earlier that he thought that Dowding’s word-spacing (in Finer points …) was too extreme. It certainly looks too tight when you first read the book but after a while it seems just right, at least to me :-).
Here is the quote from Tschichold from the Penguin Composition Rules that Berkson mentions: “All text composition should be as closely word-spaced as possible. As a rule the spacing should be about a middle space or the thickness of an ‘i’ in the type used.”

M. Alyce Barker's picture
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Joined: 26 Jan 2004 - 10:14pm
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Glad you brought the conversation back to type, jbs. I’ve been rereading the entire thread and am even more appreciative of the willingness of typophile.com members to comment and contribute.

I like the command-backslash tip, and will be looking for a place to use it soon. Any others that might not be common knowledge?

(Nick, coincidently I just finished rereading “The Chequer Board” by Shute. “A Town Called Alice” is an old favorite too.)

M. Alyce Barker's picture
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Joined: 26 Jan 2004 - 10:14pm
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Doh, I know I shouldn’t post before my morning coffee. The correct book title is “A Town Like Alice”. Oh and BTW, I got my T-shirt today. :-)

Emilie Rene-Veronneau's picture
Joined: 17 Oct 2003 - 1:29pm
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About the flush zone, forgive my ignorance but what does it even do? Everytime I change it to zero, I don’t see a difference in my stuff.

Em

Chris Rugen's picture
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Joined: 19 Aug 2003 - 11:00am
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Yeah, the Cmnd+Backslash is a great, easy way to speed up bulleted and numbered lists.

Hmmm… Other tips… A lot of them are covered here, I must say. My biggest time savers are key commands, such as (at a PC now, have to do this from memory) Cmnd+Option+Shift+< or > and Cmnd+Shift+< or > to size type quickly. Can’t think of any others off the top of my head.

For general usability, I change the color of my Quark guides to paler, subtler versions of the garish and distracting defaults. It’s surprising how much nicer it is.

[EDIT] Oh, I just thought of another (which is probably more common): use the enter/ return key on the number keypad to insert the equivalent of a page break, that will kick the next text element to the next column/text box (depending on what the situation is). Shift + numeric keypad return forces it to the next box, overriding any columns, if I’m not mistaken.



I believe the ‘flush zone’ is an area that forces the last line in a justified paragraph to justify flush with the right side when it gets inside of a certain zone. I think. I’ve never used it. That would probably explain why setting it to zero doesn’t seem to have much effect.</font>

Kent Lew's picture
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Joined: 21 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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Em —

The flush zone is exactly as Chris says. The value you enter for flush zone will determine when the H&J engine will stretch the last line of a justified paragraph. A setting of zero means that it will never force justify the last line.

Some typographers prefer that if a last line gets close to the full measure, it should go ahead and be set full justified.

If you want to see this effect, set your flush zone to something fairly large, like 25% of your column width. Then apply to some text. If you have a paragraph with a last line at least 75% of the measure, you’ll see that it gets stretched out to full justify.

A more realistic range for an appropriate flush zone setting is on the order of a few points, if at all. I personally never use it.

— K.

Stephen Coles's picture
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Joined: 14 May 2001 - 11:00am
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To me, Quark’s defaults are proof, among other things, that the
company does not value typography as a priority.

Kent Lew's picture
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Joined: 21 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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Yves, I used to be a purist and set Character Spacing to 0/0/0. But I found through some experimenting that I actually couldn’t always notice the difference in -1% (after putting it down and picking it up later, that is). So I started allowing it, just to give Quark a little more leeway to find a better line. But it does depend upon the typeface.

Regarding Cap breaks, it’s just a difference in approach. I let the machine try it and I reject it if I don’t like it, instead of trying to find places where breaking caps will help. The thing is, I’m usually going over everything anyway, so I let the program take a crack at it first. It depends a lot upon the content. In an Acknowledgement or something with a lot of names, I turn it off because it’s a hassle to track them all down. And in medium to long measures, it’s usually unnecessary. But in narrow columns, breaking Caps is one of those sacrifices I often consider.

Nick, I won’t ever scale a line. But I will use additional manual tracking on occasion to fix problems — depends upon the typeface and measure. But I tell designers working under me not to do it, as a rule, until I can teach them by example, and over time, what’s acceptable and what’s not.

Before resorting to tracking, though, I will usually try tracking just the word spacing. It’s a useful trick, and more like traditional, metal typesetting. In Quark, if you have the TypeTricks XTension loaded, then highlight the line and using the following keyboard commands:

Shift-command-option-control-[ will reduce word space by 1 unit;
Shift-command-control-[ will reduce word space by 10 units.

A line will rarely tolerate more than -10 if my H&Js are set well. The same combinations with the right bracket will increase word spacing accordingly. Note that these key combinations are similar to the ones for applying tracking, with the addition of the Control key.

On my current projects, though, I have the good fortune to have a really good relationship with the editors and can usually get a rewrite (or an okay on *my* rewrite).

— K.

M. Alyce Barker's picture
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Joined: 26 Jan 2004 - 10:14pm
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Gentlemen, thank you. I’m touched by the attention you’ve given this thread. I brought some work home this weekend and will experiment with these settings as soon as I sign off.

I’ll let you know how it works out…

Patricia Fabricant's picture
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 - 9:40am
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I can't say I've read every word of this LOOOONNNNNNGGG thread (and I can't figure out how it jumped to the top of the forum when the last post was over 2 years old but I will add that I have three H&J settings in Quark, tight, normal and loose. I find that depending on the typeface and its own defaults this is useful. Also it's a good way to either pick up a straggling word at the end of a paragraph (often mistakenly called a widow) or conversely to spread the paragraph out to fill out the last line.

TIght: min 70%, Opt. 85%, Max 100%
Regular: Min 75% Opt 100% Max 120%
Loose: Min 85%, Opt 105%, Max 125%

In all cases smallest word 5, minimum before hyph 3, min after 3, 2 hyphens in a row.

Paul B. Cutler's picture
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Joined: 15 May 2005 - 11:40am
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How about someone posting a screen shot or the settings that you use in InDesign?

I would love that…

peace

Patricia Fabricant's picture
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 - 9:40am
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I'm still using their defaults as I'm relatively new to InDy. I'd also appreciate some guidance on this from people who are more familiar with the program. I also can't figure out kerning/tracking and why adobe does in increments of 10 what Quark more sensibly does in increments of 1.

Tim Daly's picture
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Joined: 11 Sep 2003 - 9:04am
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>I can’t figure out how it jumped to the top of the forum when the last post was over 2 years old

Typophile got spammed and somebody has dragged the perpetrator out and killed him (or at least removed his posts)
Thank you anonymous moderator

>I also can’t figure out kerning/tracking and why adobe does in increments of 10 what Quark more sensibly does in increments of 1.

Illustrator (and presumably InD) uses 1/1000 em units while Quark uses 1/200 em and 1/20 em units

Tim

Yves Peters's picture
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Joined: 7 Nov 2002 - 11:00am
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> (...) and I can’t figure out how it jumped to the top of the forum when the last post was over 2 years old

Spammer hit us and revived a bunch of really old posts in the process.