Welcome to Typophile
Please Sign in.

the elusive circle (p) symbol!

Primary tabs

41 posts / 0 new
Last post
seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
the elusive circle (p) symbol!
0

Anyone here know the keystroke for the (p) publisher symbol?
In the past I have always "created" the symbol, but I know there is a keystroke for it..
similar to...
alt+0169 is ©
alt+ 0153 is T
alt+ 0174 is ®
etc.,

What should have been a quick find has now turned into a 2 day delay...
eric
(my first post)

Typography.Guru's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2003 - 2:39pm
0

There is no shortcut for this symbol.
You can use the charmap or the Unicode hex input.

Typography.Guru's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2003 - 2:39pm
0
Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

Kent Lew's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
0

I think Font Bureau regularly includes this character in their Postscript Type 1 fonts in the "pi" character slot (opt-p). But this is an old hack and by no means a standard.

-- K.

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

There is a circled capital "P" in Unicode, but it is for "musical copyright." Also not in most fonts (yet another reason not to purchase any fonts that don't allow end user modification). I'm at home now without my Unicode book, but if this is the character you want, post that, & I'll look it up tomorrow. It is somewhere around the 2000 block BTW -- maybe in letter-like symbols?

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

>Also not in most fonts (yet another reason not to purchase any fonts that don’t allow end user modification).

Seems a bit silly - it's not in most fonts because most people don't need it - it is in some common system fonts and is generic and rare enough not to worry about a font-specific version (in most cases).

It's U+2117 - as my screen shot (two posts above) shows.

http://www.myfonts.com/unicode/2117/

Cheers, Si

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

Seems a bit silly - it’s not in most fonts because most people don’t need it

Not to be too sarcastic, but we're in a bad situation if we depend on the foundry to determine what we (the end user) will need. I suppose when we need characters not in a font, we should just set those in Ariel?

For example, ours is a small shop, but at least once a month, I need characters not in most foundry releases. Not sexy things like swash small caps, but regular Latin characters with non-European diacriticals -- or even just all the combining diacriticals & space modifying characters.

Thomas Phinney's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Sep 2002 - 11:00am
0

Hypatia Sans has this character. It will be in all Adobe's more extensive Latin-based typefaces in the future, as well.

But of course it just isn't practical for every single font to have every plausible character. The aforementioned Hypatia Sans has >3000 glyphs per font. That's not a reasonable level to expect from "all fonts." Not unless you want to see 1/6 as many new fonts being released.

Regards,

T

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

Charles your point is valid - I was commenting that hanging this crusade on the case of circle P is silly.

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

And the small circled p ⓟ is 24DF http://www.myfonts.com/unicode/24DF/ (9439 in decimal)

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

Not unless you want to see 1/6 as many new fonts being released.

Now there's a thought.

* * *

Back in 2005, I was on a 4-man team at a national competition. Somebody named it "The good, the bad, and the grumpy" -- never mind there were four of us. The other three were pretty sure who grumpy was . . . (& yes, we won).

Mark Simonson's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 Dec 2001 - 11:00am
0

I include the circle P character in many of my fonts. In older fonts, I put it in the Pi slot like Font Bureau, and in newer ones in the proper Unicode slot. My reason for including it was that I used to need it when I was designing audiobook packaging.

seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
0

re: I put it in the Pi slot like Font Bureau

um, what does that mean exactly? I cannot believe how difficult this is; I cut and pasted the ⓟ from Michel Boyers post-- it worked in Outlook but didn't in IndesignCS3 nor notepad where I'm collecting the 35 individual publishing credits! urg.

Typography.Guru's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2003 - 2:39pm
0

Switch to a font that has the sign, and copy&paste should work.

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
0

" - it’s (the p in a circle) not in most fonts because most people don’t need it - "

Laugh to self. But when one wants to set p in a circle, one should not have to wait for it to snow at the equator.

re: I put it in the Pi slot like Font Bureau — "um, what does that mean exactly?"

It means that we @ FB understand how users work, and so we put the p in a circle, a "must-have" glyph that is very difficult for a user to make on the fly, in the slot of a glyph (math pi) that most people really don't need (because even if they do, it's in the symbol font on every single computer on earth).

Considering the fact that there are applications out there now that simply will not allow the inclusion of un-encoded glyphs in the document, we might be forced, by the overwhelming desire to please our users, to keep doing that.

Cheers!

Michael Duggan's picture
Offline
Joined: 6 Feb 2005 - 11:54am
0

all of the new ClearType fonts have this glyph.

Richard Kegler's picture
Offline
Joined: 15 Jan 2003 - 11:00am
0

Seems a bit silly - it’s not in most fonts because most people don’t need it - it is in some common system fonts and is generic and rare enough not to worry about a font-specific version (in most cases).

How many people have used the per-thousands symbol or logical not from any font? I think many more people have designed CD packaging that have had to hack their own publish symbol than have used many other "core" characters. But now that no one buys CDs anymore, I suppose is a moot point.

The metal foundries sold diacritics as generic sorts and did not worry about font-specific versions.

We have been putting that character in all P22 fonts for about 10 years (also in the pi slot for TT/PS and unicode for OT).

jonathanhughes's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Dec 2007 - 9:28pm
0
Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

I stand corrected, this is the single most important overlooked character, and I will make sure it's added to every new font my company procures.

>How many people have used the per-thousands symbol or logical not from any font?

I think it's a lot easier to uncover why obscure and silly characters are included in character sets and code-pages, than why important characters like (P) are not. It's probably related to these char sets being defined by tech, scientific and banking communities rather than music publishers.

Simon Daniels's picture
Offline
Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 6:37pm
0

Duplicate

seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
0

tried Jonathans suggestion:
(http://www.masterstech-home.com/The_Library/FONT_Samples/Font_Indices/Im...)

so I clicked on the (p)
and..NO (p) in the character map!
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/microsoft/arial/unicode-ms/charmap.html?cps...

tried Ralfs suggestion:
"Switch to a font that has the sign, and copy&paste should work."

tried that, nope, all it gave me was a BOX shape...

so...I guess I'm retarded. or the (p)gods are bound and determined that I do not access the elsusive (p) symbol (thunder from above)

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

You're probably on a Mac. But if it is a PC, select the font that has the character -- Ariel Unicode seems to be about the only one. Make sure the *num lock* toggle is on. Hold down the *alt* key, then using the numeric keypad, press *plus* & the digits (2117). If an alpha character is needed (as with *24DF* for the lower-case circled p), use the regular keyboard for the alphas, but the number must be from the keypad. When you've entered the Unicode string, let go of the *alt* key.

There is probably a similar way on a Mac, but I don't know it.

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

On my Mac, the capital (P) 0x2117 ℗ can be found in Calibri, Cambria, Candara, CMU Bright, Consolas, Constantia, Corbel, DejaVu Sans, Lucida Grande, Lucida Sans, MS Gothic Regular, Apple Symbols Regular, MS PGothic, MS PMincho, MS Reference Sans Serif.

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

I'll confess that I've never heard of using the circled p as as symbol for "publisher." Since the circled capital P does have meaning (sound recording copyright), I wonder if it isn't the lower-case p Eric's talking about. Anyway, that's why I suggested Ariel Unicode. As for Bitstream Cyberbit, hasn't it been withdrawn?

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

I’ll confess that I’ve never heard of using the circled p as as symbol for “publisher.”

Here is a grab from http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2100.pdf (unicode chart); they write "published" ; they say nothing special for 24DF

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

As for Bitstream Cyberbit, hasn’t it been withdrawn?

I just downleaded TITUS Cyberbit and it contains 24DF (CIRCLED LATIN SMALL LETTER P) but not 2117 (nor 24C5).

[added] Here are two related links: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/24df/fontsupport.htm and http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2117/fontsupport.htm.

seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
0

not to beat this topic to death (though I wish I could, literally..) I switched my font to ARIEL UNICODE MS in my new Word document, cut and pasted Michels ⓟ and it worked...

prior to that I tried Charles_e suggestion (the Ariel Unicode alt+2117 shortcut) but it just gave me a capitol "E" (??)
so I still don't know how to access the ⓟ ouside of this cut-and-paste method.

So, it worked (kinda.) and I THANK YOU all for your insight.
eric

*PC user, BTW. XP, Indesign CS3 and Office 2000 professional Edition

seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
0

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

I still don’t know how to access the ⓟ ouside of this cut-and-paste method.

According to http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/24df/index.htm you type Alt +24DF but they also say (if you follow the link giving the shortcut which gets you here) that you need to have your numeric keypad set to hexadecimal (HKEY_Current_User/Control Panel/Input Method, set EnableHexNumpad to "1"). Since your examples above (copyright etc) are in decimal, I would try Alt +9439 (because the number that writes 24DF in hexadecimal notation is nothing but the decimal integer 9439).

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

When I look more carefully at their input methods, I start having doubts about Alt +9439. Their universal method when the keypad is set to hexa is

(1) Press and hold down the Alt key.
(2) Press the + (plus) key on the numeric keypad.
(3) Type the hexidecimal unicode value.
(4) Release the Alt key.

and the codes you used above simply correspond to another input method.

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

Michel . . . just about. As I said in my post:

(1) num lock must be "on"

and

(2) A-F are typed from the regular keyboard; it is just the digits that must be entered via the keypad.

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
0

"I think it’s a lot easier to uncover why obscure and silly characters are included in character sets and code-pages, than why important characters like (P) are not."

It's only one reason for both situations, isn't it now.

"I will make sure it’s added to every new font my company procures."

That's overreacting. Your market needs a serif and sans available from a system utility like Apple's Type Palette, Letterlike Symbols. Is there something like this in XP? With only 1% of your market moving by choice to Vista (default CT), I don't think it's helping just to put them in CT fonts.

Cheers.

seventhform's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2008 - 11:11am
0

another annoying issue:

ⓟ©

look inconsistent? these are BOTH set at 10pt ARIAL UNICODE MS and the character spacing is uneven!
haven't imported this into CS3 yet, but this is what occurs when setting the type in Word.

This looks particularly bad when: ⓟ&© or ⓟ+©
and...
ⓟsixth form music/BMI ©projekt records

bumping up the pt in the © doesn't help either...

Charles Ellertson's picture
Joined: 3 Nov 2004 - 11:00am
0

Well, you can probably fool around with the size & position in InDesign to get them close, but I think the core of your problem is your insistence on using the lower-case p. The lower-case circled-p (Unicode 24DF) come from a different set, namely, circled alpha characters. There may a circled capital C in that set (U+24__); you could look for it. But the Sound Recording copyright symbol has always been the circled capital P -- Unicode 2117. Now if that is sized differently than the copyright symbol (circled capital C), you'd have a legitimate complaint.

David Berlow's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 - 6:31pm
0

"...these are BOTH set at 10pt ARIAL UNICODE MS and the character spacing is uneven!"

Are those serif designs in a sans, or is that my ke-warts rendering acting up?

Cheers!

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

another annoying issue:

As Charles says, if you want satisfaction, you most probably need to use the character 0x2117 and moreover, if you want everything to be nicely aligned, you need both the copyright and 0x2117 to be taken from the same font (and also from the font with the + and/or the &). Here are two examples (a grab in Microsoft Word 2008 for Mac).

In my opinion, if you don't have a font containing a glyph for 0x2117, the easiest thing to do is either to buy one or to choose a font whose EULA allows you to modify it and add to it the glyph for 0x2117.

Michel

Michel Boyer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2007 - 1:01pm
0

Correction: s/Hypathia/Hypatia/
or better s/Hypathia/Hypatia Sans Pro/

Dave Williams's picture
Offline
Joined: 6 Jul 2005 - 7:21am
0

To tackle the comment "I still don’t know how to access the ⓟ ouside of this cut-and-paste method.": In more recent versions of Word, you can get a character by typing its 4-digit Unicode, er, code and then hitting Alt+X immediately after; so in this case I type 2117 and then hit Alt+X. I'd left the font at the default TNR. Word switched to MS Mincho and dropped in the character. Setting the font to Trebuchet and trying the same thing resulted in Word switching to MS Gothic and dropping in the correct character. Dunno if this helps.

______________________________________________
Ever since I chose to block pop-ups, my toaster's stopped working.

pixelfarmer's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2009 - 11:26pm
0

aia if this is redundant. I found this info elsewhere when stumped by the problem under discussion.

Mac Menu Bar > Flag near clock > Show Character Palette (can be enabled in System Preferences)

In the palette there is a search field at the bottom. Type in unicode - 2117

In the Collections area: select "Containing selected character" - it returns all the active fonts in your system containing the glyph.

hth

Jon Cotton's picture
Offline
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 - 8:02pm
0

Hi all. Just to chime in on the end of this thread, I made a dedicated circle-p font ages ago, containing the symbol in a variety of styles. It's $5 buy-Jon-a-drink-ware... You may grab it from....http://www.artisan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/studio/pfont.html
Jon