In case you are using a really high grade paper in a good printshop, you could up that TIC (Total Ink Coverage) to around 350%. Provided fastdrying (UV), highintensity inks are used (Toyo — Japanese inks to be brighter), you might achieve something close to what you want.
Do some tests with different rich blacks and your effects. Flatten and sample the darker areas with the pipet in the Proofsimulation of PhotoShop. Or make PDF’s and check in Acrobat for TIC-limits.

Another suggestion: use a glossy laminate or varnish to finish it off.

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

thanks bert for the information - that really will help me make the black more of a ’richer’ black at the print process end, but after playing with it some more ive got a feeling my issue might now be a photoshop technical issue.

It seems to be the various layers blend modes (which are dependent on the background colour having the black a solid black, so the CMYK settings are right up allowing the layers to react the way they do - all saturated). Im just after a solid black background but with the sae level of saturation on the colours... something im not sure now might be possible :(

Anyway, Ive provided two cropped images from the file im working on which hopefully demonstrate my predicament. The first image being the original with solid black, while the second is the black background set to C10 M0 Y0 K100 - big difference in my opinion.

One - http://imgplace.com/image/view/a66ac6354132fa92437cfc47302e5ff1

Two - http://imgplace.com/image/view/0cbe5f78c279f274d248e6e081dfc067

thanks again bert.

You def. don’t want that grayish one… ; )

If I recall correctly blend modes work different in CMYK. Couldn’t you do it in RGB — using a basic deep black converted to RGB from say 40C 40M 40Y 100K?

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

If I was in your situation, I’d attempt to apply all the layer blending modes, flatten the whole file and adjust the saturation to bring your less dense black up to scratch, this may however, still be problematic, as that black will still have values from all 4 colours. Depending on your print spec, you could run the whole job with your 100% K/10% C then hit the black again with a % of the K. This, naturally, depends on the press your job is being output on.

I’ve just sent a job to print, a flooded black A1 poster, thats going through twice, to get the denseness right, 5 days drying imo, and the it needs to be folded!! :S

__
Rez

Hmm, are you referring to how it looks on-screen? If so, that’s no judge really of what you’ll get out of the printer, litho or digital. I think what you’re seeing just happens to be Photoshop’s on-screen reaction to your CMYK values and these won’t be reproduced when you print.

I also think you need to Google “rich black” too. Full 100% on all four colours is only ever used for registration and other marks. You’d never print that.

Essentially though your screen isn’t adequate to accurately proof your composition as its gamut will be different to that of the CMYK process. Downloading the colour profile of the output device might help, but the only way to judge it would be to have a chromalin or digital proof made.

Yeah re: the blends, when i convert the file to RGB it works fine. But as you know you cant provide RGB files for 4-plate cos the printer/tech will simply convert the image back to CMYK pre-plate stage - it’s then a gamble on how the swap wants to exactly spit out the RGB>CMYK conversion, which may ultimately turn it back into that grey version =/

my proof setup is currently CMYK US web Coated should this is an issue?

hmmph!

The original black you were using cannot be done - it is for registration and as you have witness, becomes a mess. If you are using a quality printer - you can make a black that has a value of 280 total. That is about the highest range a printer can get away with. Most commercial printers want way less than that - and one even told me for a richer black all he’d give me was 10c 100k — it was awful.

Thanks for photoshop - most artist don’t realize they are using a 75c 68m 67y 90k breakdown.

One artist in NY would have us use 25c 90m 70y 100k as his standard.

I am trying to understand why the black would be printed 4 times. If they are on a press that can handle 4 colors, those get printed at the same time - if they are on a press that is one color - then each color would be printed separately - but not black 4xs.

I’ll pass this on to a person I trust when it comes to printing, and see if he has any input for you.

Rez Oo: yeah, that % of K overprint to make it darker wont work as olho says is correct, its a photoshop issue, not a print issue. If i flatten the image then thats still the grey version with <100% CMYK.

Ill just have to play with the image to try and make the grey look as good as it can, i guess.

One crazy/long-winded option which i was going to try was to flatten the whole image bar the background black, then add a drop shadow of 0 distance to the top image so it adds a black>white gradient over the whole image whilst retaining the blend modes. Then layer that over a cutout of the black background - the cutout would be that of the top layer with a inner shadow into white. the idea being that the graduation will allow the top image to retain its Black undertone colours whilta the background still has the C10% K100 setting. id oubt it’ll work but its worth a shot..

I think that if you got the “grey” version back from the printer, no one would look at it and call it gray — it’s going to look black. Maybe not as rich a black as what appears on your screen, but black nonetheless. I’m wondering if your monitor isn’t calibrated well, which may be causing black (K100) in photoshop showing up much lighter than your rich black (C100 M100 Y100 K100).

The thing about the black being printed four times makes no sense. Doing a double strike of a color is common, but four times doesn’t sound right.

Talk to your printer rep. Explain what you are trying to achieve and ask for his/her input.

Heed olho’s advice. Never trust your monitor when viewing CMYK files.

Ken is right—have the print shop handle this as they’ll probably have done something similar for someone else using the same press.

I’m back. Okay, I sent this on to hubby, who has more years in printing then most of us have lived. Here is what he wrote back (I hope this helps)
*********
I have several questions I would like answered—
You say you are printing this on a litho press. Is this a single color press or a 4 color press (does the press print one color per pass or all four colors in one pass.).
Do you know the name, make of the press?

All printers and all presses are not created equal.

I assume you have prepared this as a photshop CMYK image and created your colors (including those that require black
form the photshop palette. You have created a background black form the palette using 100% of yellow, 100 magenta, 100 % cyan and 100% black. This is equal to 400% of color.

Multi color, (4 or more color presses), Offset (litho) presses cannot print this in one pass. the ink will not trap properly nor dry properly. Most good printers can print up to 320%-340% of color in small areas and up to 320% in large areas. Most printers will ask for no more
than 280% of color in any one color, although they can print more using good high quality inks and paper and have a good pressman.

An understanding of trapping on multi color presses. When printing wet colors over each other the inks have to trap similar in oil painting so they do not blend into each other and destroy the integrity of the color. For example if you print 100% magenta over 100% yellow if the ink traps properly (the magenta stays on top of the yellow as the ink dries then you get a nice bright red. If the ink does not trap properly and the yellow ink starts to mix in with the magenta ink as it dries the final color will come out more orange looking than a bright red depending on how poorly it trapped. and the drying process will be slowed down.

How to get a good deep black. there is more than one black, (warm black vs. cold black) I assume you want a nice deep cool black with as much gloss as possible. Today’s modern ink companies do not make a good process black ink. This has to do with the lack of petroleum based lamp black pigments in the market place. Todays inks are manufactured with environmental friendly pigments which do not yield the density necessary to make a good rich black in a single pass of black ink. There are several ways to achieve what you are looking for.

One way is to prepare the black area with the following color percentages. 100% Black, 78% cyan, 64% magenta, 63% yellow. This equals 305% of color. This will yield you a good deep dark black if you are on a modern offset (litho) press with a good pressman.

The other way to achieve an even better black is to print the black a 2 hit of black but still over the yellow, magenta and cyan.
I would recommend the following. 50% yellow, 50% magenta 65% cyan 90% black, and then 100% black.

Are you printing this on a gloss coated paper or a regular offset sheet? If you are not using a coated gloss sheet but rather a plain vellum finish offset sheet then I would recommend the 2 hits of black to achieve what you are looking for.

Al

P.S. I just went through an ordeal with a very well established printer - no one to talk to, and their blaming me for them not using a trapping program on a photoshop document.

Hi there. Black again, huh? When making black backgrounds (we are talking about solid blacks) either in photoshop or whatever, to be printed as four color process (or cmyk if you will) make a rich black. The best I have seen is 32c 22m 22y 100k.
When doing artwork in photoshop that requires trapping (you will judge if it needs trapping) : make the trapping yourself. Preview at 100% size and look to see if something goes wrong; some small type or hairline can go nots. Remember: it is not that the printer did not used a program to trap the CT files (tifs, jpgs, psds, even the gifs that some people use from time to time), the thing is: I have heard of prepress workflows that trap CTs (such as Artwork systems, Nexus - from Belgium, very good), but in the praxis it DOES NOT WORK! They say it does and that I have to protest and turn my face the other way.
AS for line work, 1 bit tifs, vector, trapping works anywhere, assuming that the rip has a trapping application.

To put it simple, if the image is a CT (continuous tone) then you trap it if it requires. If not, the printer will take care of it. Graphic designer don’t have to worry about trapping issues that much. In illustrator there is a overprint setting, i think by defaut, that make objects overprint, and if you are not aware (i think you can check a option on preferencies to show the overprints) is a problem sometimes. If there is way to proof things before going to press, do it.

Jackie, sorry for your loss.

Cheers

André

Hi André — I thought you remember the anniversary of Bogie’s death - one year ago May 16th. Then I realized, you thought I lost the account - ah, not yet. Every time they try to string me up — the explanations are to precise and worth more than their printers! So another battle won, hopefully, I won’t lose the war....

And André — too many printers are no longer paying attention. In the case of the one I haven’t mentioned, they reduced their prices to my client - and put all trapping, color corrections, etc. in their hands. These are the same ones that will only accept PDF files made in InDesign - go figure!

Well, there are workflows out there that you simple throw in a pdf and the system (let’s say, Agfa Apogee) and it is chewed up and even imposed, then is just proofing and is a go. The problem sometimes is that the printing companies start relying in the technology and hire unexperienced operators (which lowers the paychecks for the whole...).

I suggest you check you artwork carefully, while doing it. Say, your cover will be in photoshop, then you take care of trapping it, flat it and save as tif or psd eps if you want to keep the vector info with the file. When it is mix, tifs (don’t use jpgs, they work but funny stuff happens) and text and vector, make sure the images are flat tifs. Sometimes there are transparencies issues on pdfs, just check’em carefully before submitting to the printer. And pray when you safe. :-)

Having fortunately had the weekend to ’offset’ this issue (ok, read: not think about it), im back and yeah, Ken, you’re right, i am going to get our print manager to chat to the printers to see what solutions they can offer as im going to offer it with the 400% [black] colour.

Jackie - thanks for informative reply but its not a trapping issue, you are right about the 400% colour thing though. When i do take the black back (c10 m0 y0 k100) it loses all the colour definition - see the 2 examples i posted. I guess ill go ahead and do what i said above and wait and see what they say. And Im sorry to read about for your own printer issues - its a shame but that seems to be what you get now printers cut prices these days, [in my experience] you seem to get cut price printer responsibilities as well!

Andre - i was going to do some sort of fancy gradient/blended ’trapping’ style technique for the photoshop file, so it retained the colour fade effect into the c10 m0 y0 k100 black, but TBH i havent had the time to experiment yet :(

ill be sure what i find back here, whether good or *gulp* bad.

well, the printers have come back accepting c40 m40 y40 k100 as black maximum, so its looking ok now i guess - well, much better than that c10 m0 y0 k100 grey version earlier!

I learned so much from this tread. Thanks typophile. :)

I’ve never had a problem having 40c-20m-20y-100k printing, and it is a nice, rich black.

Yes, the 400% density for blacks is a nightmare for press people. The formula 32c / 22m / 22y / 100k works well in almost any press. Or 40c 20m 20y 100k.