First off I’d say the linked ’L’ & ’i’ look like a ’V’, so I don’t know how you’d address that other than to separate them. Other than that I could have potential IMHO.

JH

Trying to do this “without much knowledge of calligraphy” is like trying to write a song without much knowledge of melody. I am a fan of enthusiasm and do not condemn you for trying, but I think it is imperative, if you wish for this to look very good, to spend more time gaining more knowledge of calligraphy and working with nibs. Why not? You’re bound to enjoy it, and it is the most fundamental step you could take to gain a better understanding of how to do what you’re trying to do.

Ok, i’ve done some changes already... here it goes... please comment it.
I’m doing a curved baseline but... i’m not much happy with it, maybe it is the next change... and maybe that “c”

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

i didn’t see the replies.
@jazzhustler - i already thought about that, the ligature isn’t working as i expected and it comes from the initial idea of ligature all the text but yes, maybe i’ll separate them
@koppa - i already ordered some books of calligraphy, i don’t have much knowledge but i do have some, i had one year of typography studies some knowledge i do have or else i couldn’t do anything and i wouldn’t know the 45º technique... In my way of seeing, knowledge comes with books and so but it comes with experience too! For example, i think i improved from the first sketch to this second one...

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I would definitely change the way that swash emerges from the bottom of the “c”; it’s making it look like an “s”: try starting the swash with a sharp angle, or a loop, or losing it altogether.

Apart from that: what Koppa said.
______________________________________________
Ever since I chose to block pop-ups, my toaster’s stopped working.

Stick with it. You’ve got to lose that li ligature. I don’t think there’s any way to pull that off without it looking forced. The gracefulness that’s missing here can only be achieved through practice practice practice with a nib or brush.

ok... i’m seeing now the replies and it seems i was thinking right.
@dtw - you gave me an idea with that sharp angle, never thought of it. about the loop, tried, doesn’t work but... i found another solution when i broke L and I ligature, so lets see what you think.

Still have to angle that second part of the H, there are some issues about weight of stroke but that can be easily solved when passing to the fontlab. I don’t know about that T.
I feel other thing... it isnt... smooth, soft and sensual ... like it wasnt a custom type! maybe more swashes or something, maybe swashes on H and L ... what do you have to tell me on this?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

noticed now... Y has a too long descendent don’t you think? even stretching up descendent of P as i’m thinking and the ascendent of H and L, Y still not ... smooth.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I think your ending swash should come from the “c” as opposed to the “i” - the swash crossing the “c” looks out of place. Perhaps the stem of the “T” could echo what’s happening on the stems of the “l” and “i”. What is your thinking for having the finish of the “i” swash dip nearly vertically down?

And the “o” shapes should probably take a few hints from the “p”’s bowel shape - the “o”s need a bit more heft. Right now the “o”s feel a bit out of place to me.

bemerx dont forget that this is a drawing then on digital things like the “o”s are going to be changed... like the weight stroke of all letters. the other message i didn’t understand, sorry... sometimes i lack of english...

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Here goes one new version... still not in love by that T and i don’t know about the swashes of H and P.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok since i’ve seen some problems on T, P and H i reviewed the problems.
Still have some problems on P and T, especially on P, T i think it is because of the weight of the stroke...

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Why don’t you try with the correct shaped pen? That way all the weight will be in the right place, unlike the scratch technique which can be a bit misleading…

the problem is... i’m left-handed. i tried with my ArtPen 2.7mm but it isn’t easy, anyway, i already are aware of that problem and asked my father to write himself. I took half an hour to explain him the idea of how to use/draw on that and now i just have to line on top since he doesn’t draw for a long time, still have to smooth and so on and on.
In a while i’ll scan and get the work here.

I’ve changed letter P too.
Please, critiques, i need more critiques!

Thanks for comments, all comments are welcome.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Make sure you post an image!

i will.
i need critiques so... i will!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Joel,
You are well on your way.
The idea (presumably your belief) that you’ll somehow get it right once you’re working with beziers instead of ink and paper will disolve within an hour of working with beziers. You must understand what’s happening right in front of you (on paper) and you must understand bezier curves, which takes time, before the two will come together and work for you.
On critiquing: You’ve put up a rough for critique. I suggest you self critique until you feel like you’ve arrived at a finished product, and then turn it in for review. Learning to self critique forces you to be more honest with yourself as a designer. Waiting until you’ve concluded the design before seeking the review of your peers ups the risk of damage to your ego considerably, is more rewarding to us, and ultimately is more rewarding to you.

You’re overdoing it with the swashes and creating hot spots, tension points, and odd counter spaces—I’ve picked out a few in the image below. Try starting over with simple short swashes and then figure out how build knots that form pleasing shapes without distracting from the types. And keep the integrity of the letterforms in mind. When you start breaking entire stems into swashes, or using different styles of serif in a single word, the piece comes apart. For example, is that h or an n with a huge swash?

There’s a great book about flourishing and it’s cheap!

David: I do agree with you, already worked before with beziers and so. About the second part i do agree too i’m just trying to get to the place i want fast, i have my own critiques but someone can see other things that i don’t see and so i’ll make the final work faster. something like “two heads think better than one”.

James: Thanks for the critique, I don’t know if i really understood what you said but yes... you’re right! I must see that better.

Here it goes two of the latest. Sorry about the rough drawing.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Try showing some restraint:

I see what you mean... and i really loved your draw, the t, the h the l but... i don’t know i think i want to bring this custom typeface to ... some kind of illustration like for example: http://hydro74.com/H74/images/projects/treatments/16.jpg something like that middle one on top. Something to print on a tshirt know what i mean? That’s why i’m trying to florish it a lot so it gets me visual impact. I don’t know. I’m thinking on buying the book you told me but already bought some... so... still have to wait a few longer to buy another one...

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

hmm i think the l flourish is a bit too overdone and the bottom ones aren’t quite picturesque. I like the “restraint” version but it doesn’t have as much impact. If you wish to look more like Hydro’s work perhaps a more outlandish approach and more concept work needs to be done. I do like the improvements and seeing the progression!

I don’t want to do a work like Hydro, it was just to explain the impact i want. I think that restrain too much myself like on James example (which i really appreciate and thank) won’t get the impact i want.
What do you mean by “outlandish approach” ?

I would like to show you some impact flourish that i’m thinking of but I don’t know much about names. The portuguese Andrade de Figueiredo (i’m portuguese too) has some beautiful flourish on something he made on the year 1722 which i provided here with a scan from a book i have but i still want more reference of this kind of flourish. As i said i want to impact people nos just typeface designers and interested on type but all the people.
I dont want to florish the letters like on the image but maybe use that florish on other ways, the ways i’m trying to get on Y and I.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I admire your perseverance and sticking power but on looking at your roughs it appears to me that when you draw or sketch your letters you may not be giving enough attention to the white spaces. I have always believed that when working black on white it is the white background within and outside the letters that we really see not the letters. It is an elusion at its best. Light falls on the sheet but it is the light off the white that reflects to the eye. The black (that is, the letters or type) blocks out the white and they are revealed by the white within and around them. If the white shapes are wrong and miss understood then the shape of the letters and the flourishes will be totally wrong.
I appreciate that as a left hander, writing with a nib can be both difficult and frustrating for you, but if you want flow and rhythm and understanding in your italics and flourishes then you have no option but to persevere with it. You don’t have to become an excellent calligrapher, but you must have an understanding of the principles, and appreciate how the thick and thin works, otherwise you will be clutching in the dark an will never really solve the problems by just producing sketch after sketch.
I hope the following suggestion will help you to some extent.
Get the longest board you can manage to place on your lap and place it against a table (If you have a large drawing board at a steep angle, even better). Attach two 2b pencils together with an elastic band and make sure that the point of the left hand pencil is lower than the right hand one. Then try writing or constructing the letters with paper placed as far to your left as you possibly can.
This will help you to hold the pencils at a steeper angle. I know that you will not see the letters as well as you would like, but the shapes you will produce , depending on your skill and how consistent you maintain the angle, might give you some idea of how the thick and thin works. You can experiment with the angle by adjusting the pencils with the elastic band. See what happens by having the left pencil higher and lower. I think you will have some exciting revelations.

Ieuan Rees

interesting... like the monks did but with that special instrument. on these last ones you must have seen that i tried to do with my artpen at the right angle and so but as you said is frustrating cause... i can’t draw!!! i just can follow things and that will make rought stuff. i tried my father to do it has he in times made calligraphy and so but you couldn’t cause he doesnt draw for years! when i say years i say like 30 years!
i really understand you the white spaces are always important but yes, i take very few attention to it.
i think i’ll try to do that that you said, like a monk ehehe...
maybe tomorrow i’ll have something already. i’ll try to make florish and something too.
thanks for the patience!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

i can’t draw!!!

Practice! I spent about a year drawing letters with every pen, marker, and brush I owned before I started drawing type with a computer. I still can’t draw well, but what I learned about letter construction is invaluable.

i really understand you the white spaces are always important but yes, i take very few attention to it.

Try drawing trees, but only draw the space around the trees and in-between the branches. You will learn to appreciate the white spaces rather fast.

no you misunderstood!
i draw everyday for about 3 years already... i’ve been on arts already! the problem is the position of the hand as Ieuan understood!
It’s really difficult for a left-handed try to use a ArtPen it even hurts my wrist! That’s why i can’t draw, i can’t draw on that position. It will always be rough because my hand and wrist are in total tension.

I’ve done that already (draw trees) as i said already been in arts and even on my Communication Design degree (that i’m studying) i have a class called “Drawing” and already drew there “white spaces” like... drawing by the negatives and then i had classes with Dino dos Santos and he loves white-spaces too so... i’ve been a little influenced by him too but sometimes... i forget about it.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

If you can only copy (follow) you are destined to repeat what has been done.

In learning the nature of the tool and then experimenting you will be able to create.

Michael

i don’t copy, i do see what is relevant and what is good! not because the good is something to follow but because with the good and the bad you can see why one is good and why other is bad and that’s learning too... learning with errors of the others...

I don’t know if you were refering to this but...

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Thank you for creating this fun posting! I was going to add on to a screen-grab of one of the images posted above...but wanted to try out some of the possibilities for interweaving the forms and swashes of this particular sequence of letters, with an actual pen. The only pen I had on-hand was an inexpensive felt-tipped calligraphy pen.

Hope this helps to generate some ideas!

*

Uou! you got patience hehe. First and second have some interesting points. I’ll have to rethink.

Today i’ll do the Ieuan’s idea and let’s see what i get.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok after some drawings i started to get somewhere! At start i was doing some sketches a little too gothic with a lot of angles and so. At this “final” i already went with some smoother lines. Still there are some problems like the size of the ascendents as it is possible to see on the T, spacing and maybe if descendents were bigger it wouldn’t be bad. Forget about the ligature from T to H, just trying. One thing that i really have to rethink is that T, i have an idea that i already sketched but i’m waiting for your opinion to start the new drawing.

Ieuan told me to use 2b pencils but... they were pissing me off so i started use some markers and the paper is A2. I left the swashes/ligatures with a lighter color because they are kind of try outs!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Try not connecting the flourish on the right to the letters. There really isn’t any reason to connect it.

Hmmm... like on what? like on H, I and T? Or like on C ?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Hmmm... like on what? like on H, I and T? Or like on C ?
What about florish and something? Better?
Oops made two posts...:s

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I was really liking the end of “y” looping around and either creating swash or links to some other character extension. I think having the loop on this “y” brings some visual balance to that portion of the composition.

Maybe you could try linking it to an extension of a leg of the “h”. Something like this: (?)

marz, your additions look great! I need to get some calligraphy tipped felt pens now.

Hmmm i see marz, my next T is like that eheh just for you to know i was drawing a similar T! About the ligatures you’ve made i lose then something, the florish. I swash and so but... as i said before, i can’t forget the impact... yes, it is really nice very nice but won’t i lose impact? Then there is another issue, you didn’t draw the middle letters (i’m not saying for you to draw cause you already are having a lot of patience) so we can’t see how Y and P acts for example and i think that as someone said here before, it would make tension on that cross! I just don’t know if it will work but thanks a lot for the effort!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I just wanted to quickly convey in a 2-second sketch the possible link between the “y” tail and the “h” leg....and as I was drawing it, the upper “h” stem and “T” cross connection occurred to me...so of course, you’d have to factor in the missing letters: “po” & “olic”.

I think if you made the “y” tail extend a little lower and made the loop a little bigger than my sketch showed...this would avoid the problem of the “y” & “p” crossing (you’re totally right!—that intersection would create negative tension).

If you wanted more impact, in the form of multiple loops and swashes, then this probably IS too simple.

I hope you find an arrangement that suits your purpose!

*

Yes maybe too simple but between your sketch and mine... i think... i’ve done something ehehe... see and comment please.
I think that the end of Y should be rounded and smoother... it is to “o” i think.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

When I look at this...I almost imagine the lines to be like a ribbon. Just pull up the slack a little from the left leg of the “h” so it does not have quite so much trough. The excess slack I would be pulled into the loop of the “y” (meaning a bigger loop).

You have a good balance as a whole, in the placement of the top left and bottom right flourishes. With the main issue, I think, of resolving the attachment of the lower-left flourish to that “c”. If you could, lighten the connection a little more, so the form of the “c” is not at all misconstrued for an “s”. You may also want to try VERY delicately attaching it to the upper terminal of the “c”, and have it branch down and around to create the flourish below (and as it did so, the line would become gradually thicker). This could be tricky. The other option of course is using the lower portion of the “l” stem as the parent to that lower flourish, instead of the “c”.

*

I don’t know if i understood it all but about the bigger loop on “y” was the “o” i was talking about, already drew a bigger one and got the lower-left part of “h” smaller to smooth it.

About “c” already thought about it but...i dunno what to do, i don’t want to use “l” but maybe it is the best solution i don’t know.

What about “T” and “y”? What do you think?
Do you think the rest of the work, composition and letter drawing, are good?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Okay. I see what your concern about creating an “o” shape, but if this loop is far enough away from the baseline of the text, this should not be a problem. But you don’t HAVE to have an ostensible loop.

Continue to work that “T” & “y”, you can probably make it flow.

_____

If you do want to continue experimenting with this sort of lettering, I would recommend getting a regular nib point (non-scrolled: “scrolled” meaning it produces more than one line per stroke). My calligraphy teacher favored the Brause brand nibs, a little harder to find, but better.

Your patience is definitely paying off!

*

Some possible attachments and arrangements for the lower-right swash might be:

(rough sketches, only had a plain felt pen on hand):

Yes i’m not really happy with that “T” and “y” but i think it would earn something to have the ligature.

About nib, i have an artpen with 2.7mm but there is one problem, i’m left-handed. For left-handed those are stuff very hard to use because they only write in one way! So it’s really hard to write with it.

Again, your patience is something... ehehe. Before your post i was thinking about something like the third one but now that i see... Maybe the forth solution isnt bad at all. I thought it would be worse. First solution i don’t like, second i think it won’t be good for composition. I’ll try third and forth solution.

Again thanks a lot for your patience then i offer you a t-shirt ehehe.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok here it goes. What do you think? would you use this on a t-shirt?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok, here it is a slight change on T and Y. I think that the left leg from Y wasnt ok pointing upwards.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

looking good!

i noticed something now... it needs a bigger dot on the i, just like the marz example and maybe curve L a bit just to give a bit more dynamic... critiques i need critiques!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I must say, you have really come a long way in the crafting of your letterforms. Shows how practice makes ALL the difference.

The issue I can see with the “l-looping-into-the-i-dot” ligature is that you might want to make the part of the loop that is extending down toward the dot thinner, so this figure is not misconstrued as a capital letter “P”.

You’ve really loosened up in the spacing of your letters, which makes the word nice and legible.

It would make an awesome shirt!

i still have to space it better. About the li issue i don’t know, i don’t think people would go that way but maybe “without” the dot, the final circle it won’t look like that, and since i want to round the L a bit too... i’m thinking on getting T bigger.
After this... what you think? move on to the computer?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

well i think i’ve get to the final! sweat worths it! what you think? time for fontlab? can you see any error i should correct before going to fontlab?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok, i didn’t have much critiques on the last one (none) but i went on my way anyway... so... here is the final work for critiques!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

The x-height is so solidly established by p, o, o, i, and c that it seems weird that the left arm of the y doesn’t reach it.

The differing treatment of the end of the p descender and the l swash that goes over the eye bothers me.

I feel like your decorative swashes get thicker than the strokes of the letters - if anything, shouldn’t it be the other way around?

Making the upright stroke of the T, the h, and the l more parallel as you have in this digital version was definitely a good move.

About y... i dunno... something to see...
About p... i dont want to swash it so...
Stroke issue... i measure everything... and it varies in like 5 points or something so ... maybe a visual problem i don’t know... but i’ll see Y issue.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Joel

What I like to see in this kind of project is an encapsulated word, which given time I am sure you will/would achieve.

This was done quickly based on what you have digitized (already) but redistributing the flourishes and done with a calligraphic marker. Sorry about the quality but my scanner, printer and workhorse computer are out of commission for another week.

What I have seen from the beginning is a disconnect between the tool and your forms (hence my comment way back in the thread). The entry/exit strokes of the i do not match the flourishes. Same with the exit strokes of the T and the h. The terminals of the l and h flourish leave me hanging, if you would have had a chisel edged pen in your hand I am sure the blunt end would have trailed off more gently.

Don’t get me wrong. Your struggle has brought you quite a distance.

Mine is my take (and may not be to your liking and 1 of 1000’s of solutions) and you may want something totally different.

Michael

Yes i want something totaly diferent but there are some details that i like on your letters like on P but i tried that already on my sketch and didnt work. As i said before i’m still trying to buy a left-handed calligraphic pen. I’ve used two markers, i think my problem now is practice but with two markers isn’t easy to practice! I need that pen!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

I think it looks gorgeous Joel. The y definitely looks better in the newest version.

I agree with Iffy! (about the “y”)

I think if you wanted that “y” to be more in line with the rest of the characters, you might consider this:

Rotating the main body of the “y” (where the arm and stem converge into the “v”-type shape) clockwise about 35-45 degrees, then adjust the arm according to how it would look best.

Even though all your x-heights of your letters may match, both the stem and arm of the “y” are pointing in the direction opposite of the slant of the other characters (these point left, while the main slant points slightly to the right). So this is probably making it appear to be of a smaller size. Also the upper stem of the “y” arching up exaggerates the illusion of the arm being even shorter than what it really is (don’t change the “y” -to- “T” connection you have established though). I think adjusting this “y” so that its’ stem flows with the slant of the other characters will fix this optical illusion.

*

Wow, this is looking really great!

sorry but... i don’t know what you mean :s what should i do?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Here are some sketches of what I meant.

(I am in a big hurry today, so forgive the fact that it’s not so precise and also scanned in crooked). This is just to give you an idea.

See how most all the characters lean slightly to the right, and that both the stem AND arm of the “y” point left. I think you should at least adjust the stem of the “y” so it has the same slant as the rest of the characters.

Now for the arm, you could leave it as is, or square it off and match it’s slant too. Up to you...

oh i understand now... tried that and... i don’t know i still prefer the not-squared.
other thing... other subject... do you know where i can buy like an ArtPen for left-handed? i would like to go everywhere and have the pleasure of drawing type eheh... with nib is impossible because of the ink and scratching at 45 degrees just isnt the calligraphy i look so... anyone can tell me a pen for left-handed calligraphy?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

These supplies ARE difficult to find.

I did find a link to an online store that sells professional oblique nibs for left-handed calligraphers (they also sell the holders). These are the inkwell-dip style nibs that are probably the most professional.

http://www.blotspens.co.uk/acatalog/Mitchell_Round_Hand_Left_Oblique_Pen...

*

A second option is the fountain-pen style, that uses an internal ink cartridge. Here is a link for these sorts of pens for left-handed calligraphers:

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/acatalog/calligraphy.html

I hope this helps!

i prefer the second one. i was already seeing that link :) thanks

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

for left handed writers there are two methods that do not require special equipment:
– turn the page 90 degrees clockwise, write from top to bottom (as advised by Gerrit Noordzij)
– flip the writing process, write from right to left (the Da Vinci method :-)

Margor

I saw your work in the “I’m looking for a Calligrapher” thread, and it looked precisely like the writing Freeza had requested. How long have you been practicing calligraphy? Are you self-taught and/or have you had lessons?

margor just have to say... THAT’S CRAZY!!!! i’m looking at your pen too and i’m wondering... what’s that pen?
Well that’s a bit crazy because... i think you see that’s crazy! lol if i do the first method i don’t have the perception of baseline and so on and on.
on the second method... ham... i always writed from left to right.
Still wondering about that pen.
But, even being crazy, i can try! and i will.

Other thing... for the da vinci method you use a mirror? or just do that “blinded”?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

marz, as a calligrapher i am self taught.
initially, i just made my way through writing history from Capitalis Quadrata, Rustica, Uncialis … up to 18th century flex-nib writing. that took me several months.

youremin, i know it sounds crazy, but it works – at least for my students.
(i am right handed myself, and i have to confess: the images above are mockups just to demonstrate what a mean)
you don’t need a mirror for the “Da Vinci method”. in fact it would only make things more complicated. but if you have some reference you are working from, it helps to scan it and flip it in Photoshop. to check your flipped writing just hold it against the window and look at it from the backside.

the pen is a Lamy Joy.

i tried both techniques the 90º technique is the best drawn, even though is kind of hard to draw well.
crazy techniques. anyway there is other way to do this with an artpen for right handed. it is too cross the hand and write with the hand upside down. how can i explain this, your hand is above the draw with the pen pointed down. i think there is more control than on other techniques, takes time to draw, sometimes we have to remember the position, sometimes the ink fail but ... it draws better than on other techniques, i guess. still... want to buy a left-handed pen.... so it can be easier and so on and on.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

never thought about LAMY but it is a great mark. i thought there was only rollball pens on Lamy but for left handed i’m finding interesting things like these
http://www.lamy.com/eng/b2c/AL-star%20silverblue/027 that has left-handed version.
And on other pens i find oblique version, i don’t know if it works but i’ll try on some store or so to see if the oblique works for left-handed.

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

Ok. Here i am again... interesting blog for calligraphers and so http://thecalligraphypen.com/

For those who have a lamy, maybe you can help, i’m wondering how is the Safari, it seems very nice on critiqs and on reviews! I would like to know too how are the nibs and so... can i use a oblique? i don’t know which nibs are appropriate to left-handed... will it work just fine with the regulars?

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual

“cross the hand and write with the hand upside down”
don’t do this for too long or your orthopaedist will become very rich :-)

yes... i know but from what i can see its the best way... it doesn’t hurt my hand i spent already 1h doing that. i went to a penshop today to find some Lamy but... the ones they have doesn’t fit... and Oblique ones are just for the expensive versions :s so i have to stick with the art pen!

Joel Santos // youremin
sound & visual