Sorry to say, but it’s quite obvious you don’t have any design experience.

These are all very busy, but I think there’s some hope in the mark for logo ’B’. Right now because of the even stroke width and rounded ends, it looks almost Korean to me. I’d make it look more organic like real brush strokes. You can go with the blue and red for a colour version, but I’d lose the outlines (and especially the shadow) of ’C’ and ’D’.

I’d choose typefaces that contrast a bit more, maybe a rigid sans and a brush script, or else just use a single typeface. Look at how the letters connect in “English” - you’ll have to modify the ’En’, ’ng’, and ’li’ connections so they look natural.

Pay attention to how the type and the mark work with each other. Right now, there’s no alignment whatsoever.

The “your way...” slogan doesn’t really make sense to me.

- Lex

“Teachers touch” means some hand written style font.

That’s begging for Comic Sans! ;)

Looks more preacher than teacher to me.

The whole ’PET’ concept is too complex and when you combine it with 4 lines of text you are getting ridiculous.

My rating: 1

1

Uninstall Logo Creator and hire a designer.

Thanks so much for the feedback. I think I have a designer rating that is not on my scale but I think I can improve that.

I have made a few changes based on your feedback just to see the differences. I do not know what would be rigid sans. I agree that they are busy. You should have seen the first sketches, those were more than busy.

I look at the brush strokes and think they make it even more busy.

My wife is a teacher and uses comic sans all the time in her work sheets. I think it is too youthful.

Everybody has to start somewhere.

Comic Sans...bad idea. I am pretty sure he was joking. God I hope so. ha. Anywho...yes you picked the right forum, this is a place filled with people that love to design especially when it has type in it :D

So my suggestions to your logo. I actually think the symbol at the top (B) has some promise. I get it, it’s a kid raising his hand and there’s what looks like a desk or a japanese style character. Works ok enough. Develop that first. Keep the type simple. It is quite long like you said and if your goal is to have people come to your site, then write is as a ulr. “professionalenglishteachers.com” or “ProfessionalEnglishTeachers.com” Something along those lines. The that way you break your logo into 2 elements, a symbol and the type. it will make it much easier to deal with and less jumbled.

The typeface you choose always depends on your audience. But pick one that you think makes sense right now (keeping it simple and easy to read) and try what I said above. Then come back here and post it. If you want a good logo...you’re going to have to redesign and submit a lot to get some advice considering you’re not a designer. and obvious...sorry. But it’s not a big deal as long as you’re willing to put in some time! You’ll learn a lot, I promise :)

Things to think about:

Contrast. If all of the elements of your logo are the same size...it’s boring. make one or the other much bigger or much darker.
Color. Design in black and white first. Think about color afterwards. You need a strong logo before you start playing with color. (but do keep possible color schemes in mind)

Cheers

cslem1,
Thanks for the constructive critique. The intent is for the symbol to be a teacher in front of a podium or desk. However, like David mentioned it could be more preacher than teacher. With a name and product like ProfessinalEnglishTeachers.com I can not use PET alone without confusing people and it is for a non English speaking community too. I want them to remember the name. The symbol is a creative creation from many sketches and tweaks of the letters PET. I use Adobe Illistrator. But if it would be better to start with just text than so be it. I don’t know of many law firms with a shorter name than mine.

The “your way…” tag line is suppose to be saying the customer can learn English and pave the way to success in an English dominated international business market, it also can mean that the customer can tailor the English lessons to their needs. I think it is also has a better rhythm to have a short phrase after the long name when I read it out loud.

I want to learn and am willing to put in the time to create something that this community would consider quality. I have read many of the posts here and am happy to have found such a ´great site.

Comic Sans...bad idea. I am pretty sure he was joking.

I was only half joking ... I know that Comic Sans is many a teacher’s favourite typeface, so it might actually be appealing to them. I understood that the target audience of the website is teachers, or is it? Anyway, I don’t think Comic Sans will work for this. Perhaps something more classy, like the classical – maybe even cliché – British typefaces ... Gill Sans perhaps?

Here are some text only attempts. I like the more traditional text next to the script. I think all of them are nice. I do not know about the smaller font size in #5 for com. I think it is a bit of a distraction from the harmony. Number 4 and 5 are the same except for the size of English. I am in favor of the bigger one. Please rank these offerings. I know it is still an untrained hand but perhaps I am on to something.

#1 is for Jens the Gill Sans and I like it! It is even better white on black.

Here are 4 more. The last one should tell a story about how English bridges the gap, gets you there. The bridge is just a stick thing but does the idea have merit? In all of these I have tried to arrange the letters to be better spaced than just “out of the box” is it noticeably better or worse? I notice some fonts are better than others on the spacing. Would I call this kerning when I rearrange the letters one at a time?

trying a bit too hard. You don’t want to change the size of the font too much. Makes the reader work too hard, which also makes it that much harder to read. I don’t think you need to emphasize English too much. Especially in the middle of a “sentence”. It again makes the reader work too hard to read it, feels very unprofessional.

Try seeing how you can fit together the words, make it one unit rather than just throwing it together.

I want to echo cslem1’s advice. I don’t see why “English” has to be emphasized apart from “Professional” and “Teachers.” I would like to see one line of text with the name:

“Professional English Teachers”

on one line. #10 has promise. Also, I think you should stay away from sans-serif typefaces. I think serif typefaces will communicate more professionalism and authority than sans.

—
Nick Hladek

Nick, Here are a few serif typefaces without focus on English outside of a little spacing. I think that 14 is most readable because the letters are wider but it also need more realestate. The last one I think is the least readable.

cslem,
“Try seeing how you can fit together the words, make it one unit rather than just throwing it together.”

I need some help understanding this. What is it you mean by fit together?

Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment on my efforts.

What I mean by trying to make the words fit together is: study the shapes of the letters, it’s all about flow. I can’t show you without just doing it, but just trying googling (images) “logos”. The best way to learn is to look at the pro’s and see what you can pick up from them (don’t copy, obviously).

Also, an important question- Is this logo only going on the web?? Because if so, also google (images) “Web 2.0 logos”. I think you might get a lot of ideas from there. Of course you want to keep in mind professional, because going the web 2.0 way can be easy to make your logo look too cartoony.

You can get a great designer to give you a great logo for about $100 on this. It will be well, well worth your money.

Vanina, Thanks for the good advice. I know I can pay someone and in the end I still will, but then I learn nothing except how much faster it is to buy experience. I have already learned a lot about type. It is fun for me. As I learn here I get to appreciate what you all do. It is easy to copy, but to invent is the major league. I want to swing my bat here and see if I can hit anything. I can paint a beautiful protrait with oil and I thought I could try to develp something with pixels. It is proving more difficult.

I think either your F or G logo marks are a start. Try putting that mark centered over your #12 type treatment and see what it looks like. I think that would earn you a 2/10, granted there is still a long way to go.

I would consider exploring a lot more ideas on your logo mark, your site is not easily referred to as PET, most users will probably pronounce the full name. Also why not pick a shorter domain name? Or at least a domain like ProET.com or something.

Search youtube for logo design showcase or portfolio. Also go on logo websites or professional designers’ websites who specialize in logo work.

I really like:
Louise Fili: http://www.louisefili.com/logos/logos.html
Borges: http://www.borgeslettering.com
Non-Format: http://www.non-format.com/
Si Scott: http://www.siscott.co.uk/ & http://www.youarebeautiful.co.uk/bitch_web/
33rpm: http://www.33rpmdesign.com
and Hydro 74: http://www.hydro74.com/

Just a thought...

when I was looking at your desired logo elements—> I noticed that the person could be represented by a “P” and the podium by a “T”. Now for the “e”? Hmmmm. Perhaps a “hand-drawn” calligraphic “e” made to look like the teachers hand.

This is a quick sketch I did with a very bad Sharpie...but just to throw the rough concept out there!

*

Very first set, option b, there’s something there with that simple line mark. That could work.

But everything else is falling into the ’filters and effects’ trap.

For now, forget colors, forget 3D, forget brush effects, forget skewing, rotating, transforming.

Don’t think ’handwriting’ as that really doesn’t say a whole lot about teaching, unless you were aiming for a cursive angle, but even that doesn’t seem to say ’english teacher’.

Keep it simple. I would go back to the drawing board. good luck.

Trying to balance a tall logo with alot of text can be difficult. I didn’t see PET until you pointed it out. You my want to look at some sort of icon that sells for you.

Please, just hire a professional designer.

David

I agree with hiring a designer.I realize you want to learn yourself but your sort of jumping in on the last step of the learning process without actually learning everything first.

Pick up the logo Font & lettering bible. A lot of good advice and history and application.

KC,

This may be ’fun’ for you but if you are serious about the results, hire a designer. Teaching English may be fun for me but I would be bad at it. I have seen more promise in the three iterations by Vintage than anything you have posted. You cannot teach a lifetimes worth of design skills in a forum like this.

Sorry to be blunt but I imagine most here would agree. I hate elitism in design and believe that anyone can design and be a designer. The results however, may not be great but hopefully enjoyable.

“You cannot teach a lifetimes worth of design skills in a forum like this.”

Jayyy is completely right. I was hoping that you would try to do some of your own research of logos that already exist and then give it an honest try. Logo design, however, is not simple, well good logo design...especially if you don’t even know the basic principles of design. So I say if you are doing this for yourself and it’s more about YOU doing the logo then research a lot and start over. If you are doing this for a client...hire a designer or at least a student.

If you decide to keep putting up logo drafts, I will continue to critique, otherwise I’d still like to see the finish product regardless of what you decide to do, so at least post a link when it’s done!

Good luck!
Courtney

I like the direction of Dave Curry a.k.a. vintagesingman. It has somehow contemporary looks of Olympic logos. Which may not be the best but it’s still very good for organisations (probably non profit).

Yes it’s very clear that KC doesn’t have any real life experience with logos. I’m always amazed how complicated people like this try to make their logos. We all live in a world surrounded by logos. We are annoyed by busy snail mail marketing spam in our mail boxes. They all reflect this kind of design. Any yet they still tend to overdo this.

Fact: logo symbol PET (I didn’t see it either but I find it clever now) is very promising. VERY. Dave showed us how.

You don’t want to emphasize English too much. Almost definitely not with using a different font unless they complement each other.

If you’re not going to hire a designer I would at least suggest you start reading Robert Bringhurst’s Elements of typographic style. Quick!

——
Robert Koritnik

Thanks so much for all the comments and input. I am doing this for myself, no client. No designer poser here. The next few are marks based on PET. I like O the best. Are these of any design value?

“Search youtube for logo design showcase or portfolio. Also go on logo websites or professional designers’ websites who specialize in logo work.”

j_polo9,
I have looked a so many logos. They are almost always simple. I look at them in Black and White and see this. Most are just text. I have looked at lots of Web 2.0 stuff since cslem1 mentioned it. I have made a few but they seem unsuitable on this thread. I think I should avoid color.

I have not just 4 or 5 or 6 letters but more of a paragraph for a name, 30 letters. But as an internet brand, the name is what people need to remember and a name like ProET.com is for me not as easy to remember and is already owned. In English PEteachers means something other than English, ProET ET means the movie, PET means pet. Outside of creating a non related name for my product I have few options to make it short, relevant, and memorable.

The use of P E T as a person in front of a podium I thought was clever. Not that “PET” has much value for me alone. The initials are secondary to mark but the use of the letters and their relevance to the name makes it for me an interesting, memorable and relevant mark. My last post of the negative space PET is less about the person and podium and more about drawing the reader(customers) in to discover what it is, and then remember it. I will never hire famous people to wear my mark and sell my product, it needs to draw the person in on it’s own. I know I will hire a designer to do the final work but I want to develop a few of my own ideas before I hand it all over. This project is not about me and a huge ego but it would be cool if I had a part in the creative process outside of money.

jayyy,
Blunt is ok, I like that. Rude is bad and you are not that at all. I understand my limitations but I am creative by nature and just need to try and see what pros think.

“You cannot teach a lifetimes worth of design skills in a forum like this.” I studied Mechanical Engineering so I know what you mean. I think anyone who has completed a university degree program knows how little they really know.

cslem1,
I will post my link for sure. The website name is already clear but I will be back to remind you all when it is up if you like. After all this is the first place I have presented it publicly.

Marz, litera, vintagesignman,
Is my original person in front of a podium catching on as something better than before? Should this figure be refined as a mark?

Just text and color or with one of the teachers marks. A little web2.0ish

I think the neg space does not go with the text
Then the PET is also screaming to me about a dog or something (distraction for me)

lol the top one is web 1990ish. The colours are less bad on the bottom... but what is the design for?

Your logotype is huge and the combo doesn’t work. try one of the ones vintage sign man did. Your latest pet symbol has promise but it still needs to be designed... right now it is only a concept. You need to mess with different strokes and weights and combinations and variations and... etc. until you have something that is eye catching and memorable. right now it is a stick figure drawing.

LOL, I can not tell when something is 80s 90s or what. That is funny though.

The design is for freelance English teachers that want to land corporate clients in German or EU companies. The mark stand for freelancers that teach business English. That means it has to be a universal mark for teachers and communicate professionalism to corporate clients. I am considering other symbols for the mark like a neck tie.

I will go talk to my stick figures some more :)

Of course you can’t. That’s why you’re producing so much different things and that’s why your attempts are not going anywhere yet...

By the brief I suggest you take vintagesignman ’s approach. It works very well for organisations and will work in EU. The middle one without the web address to me is at 90% of being finished.
___________
Robert Koritnik

Well, I have to say that your symbol has become pretty easily recognizable to me. If I see your icon somewhere else on the site...I know exactly what it’s for, haha...which is great. So I think your symbol is at least something you want to keep, just refine...you just need to figure out how to “attach” the web address and not make it look like you did it in Word.

courtney

I think this is my best work yet, I like it, maybe it earns me a rating of 2.5/10. I am sure you will tell me when it is worse, only cold hard honesty on this thread ;)

I think the new figure is integrated into the words nicely (as idea) but the weight of the strokes is too thin at the E and T. Each of OO-S are a little different but I tried to bring the letters together. Would you believe I did this in Word?

I tried to handle the PET a little differently in each one. I think S is to “7ish” on the “T”. Q-R I think loose the “T” too much, looks too much like an “L” or an “I”.

Design T is the same as Q but with the mark.

Here is T thickened up

Maybe instead of playing on a computer you should take a piece of paper and a pencil. You’ll worry about the end implementation later. Designers normally do it this way.

I don’t like any of these especially not the one with the symbol and lettering, because I hate overdone logos when there are two visually emphasized parts. Have either one or the other. Not both.
___________
Robert Koritnik

leachers?

The irony is that you are rendering the words illegible by employing so many tricks.

Miss Tiffany,
Is that true for examples OO and P?

litera
What do you find bad about OO or P?

Alu,
I see leachers now too and do not like it.

Yes, it is true for all of those, including U.

I don’t say this often, but honestly you should hire a real designer. It’ll be worth it, at least in the time saved coming up with concepts just to have them repeatedly shot down.

- Lex

KC -

Good for you for coming to a place to learn. These forums have helped me a lot in my development in design skills. I think I’ve come some way since my first post about a year and a half ago, but I have a long way to go.

Having said that, I think that the advice has been given many times for you to scrap this design, sit down with a pencil and paper, and draw a logo. I haven’t seen you do that. Instead, you have posted numerous iterations of the same design you first posted.

I think it’s safe to say that your concept is broken. It consistently receives feedback that points out fatal flaws in both design and execution. Unless you’re willing to take the advice of people who have a lot more experience than you, then I can’t see that you’re engaging in this process in a way that could produce a good result.

So here is, once again, a bit of advice that has gone a long way for me in my design development:

Sit down with pencil and paper and draw some black and white logos. Then come back and let us see what you’ve done.

—
Nick Hladek

You have two problems you need to work on.

1. An icon. Come up with an icon that you like. PET or no PET, but for heavens sake, don’t try to turn your text into an icon by melting that jumble together.

2. You have a lot of text! My advice is to look at these two problems separate but figure a way to bring them together. Readability is very important, if you add the .com after teachers it may come off as teachers.com

Paper and pencil is a great way to work things out.
Good luck.

KC,

After a quick search on Google images I came across quite a few logos with a similar look to your “stylized person”. Originality is key when it comes to an effective logo.

I had a couple minutes to spare while I wait for my ride... I came up with this...

Good luck with your logo. You definitely foudn the right place for constructive criticism! :)

A.

Oh... I forgot to mention something... a small piece of advice...
I’d stay away from graduated fills. Some effects/techniques really are best left to the pros.... not unlike starting a sentence with ’and’. Heehee! ;)

I like the typewriter font — by itself.

too, too much. try to think about the singular thing that makes this service unique and special. it always helps me to make a 3x3 matrix with symbols on one axis and adjectives that i think describe the company on the other. k.i.s.s., you dig? i agree with the drawing first bit. effective negative space is the way to go... think about how it would look on the eraser head of a pencil... it has to be that small as well as the size of an eighteen wheeler (in theory)... think about literature... the touch... the imprint certain instructors leave on your life... it always helps me to think of three adjectives and then do a... what is the word? BRAINSTORMING TREE? (get yerself three HUGE pieces of paper for each word and write down as many words that you can think of that correspond to each one, then try to connect all three????) it always helps me to do that. if you want to talk message me and i will talk to you all you likee.
s.e. myers

I hired a designer (a few days ago) and these are his drafts for me. Nothing final. I asked him if it was ok for me to post them and he said it was ok.

I would like to hear your comments. I do not see anything that would fit on an eraser but I do not see that as ever possible if I insist on the text being in there. I thank you all so much for your time and honesty.

My critique is that I see extreme complexity in the figures and see that as a weak point for a logo, however, I do like the story they tell. The very simple red logo is more logoish but I find it boring and not telling the story the others do. Perhaps if it was the bust of one of the other figures with a tie.

I have been pushing for the .com to be in everything, is this unnecessary?

Please rate and comment. Which is the strongest? Which tells the best story?

Hmm, I think out of all these...I like a2 best. The only reason being that it has depth. But I don’t think I’m digging the silhouettes. It’s not unique, I see those silhouettes all over stock photo sites. (Not saying that’s where your designer got them, but just saying it’s not one of a kind) Also, the silhouettes seem very unprofessional because of their body language, they are all hunched over, they look more like teenagers dressed in suits. I think (If you haven’t already) suggest that your “designer” try some examples with your symbol. You had something there...I think it was just a little hard for you to execute into a logo.

Also, the text used a4, in my opinion, doesn’t work. Your text is so long and the condensed text is hard to read and especially will be when it’s smaller.

Anywho, I do think you are right about the complexity. They are too complex. I mean, my personal design preference is simplicity. You need something very simplistic that people can remember on its own. (That’s what I was getting at with the problem of the silhouettes) I mean think about the famous logos...McDonalds...FedEx...Deutsche Bank. (The latter being the epitome of simplistic logo)

courtney

The new ones all look like clip art of business people. I don’t see teacher or english in these at all.

Why not pick a nice font and just go with the name?

Sharon, That seems too easy, too plain even lacking. There is not art, mo mark, or do I see it wrong? I dig art. I never thought of type as art until I found this forum.

avoid the clip art.

If you must go with a symbol, maybe step back and brainstorm some more. Think less ’business person’ and more abstract ’language, europe, education, communication’.

aluminum, abstract is abstract. I guess that is why I started out with the less abstract letters and formed something abstractish (new word I think I just invented) although not “unique” with them. Last night I went back to my three letters and tried some more. The result is below. I have tried to brainstorm these things, education, communication, language but not yet Europe. I see icons like apples, books, lips and maybe letters like Üäöß. Perhaps just the letter Ö with a tie or no tie. Tell me what you folks think of the latest PET abstractions. I like them but that may only be because I did them. I will brace myself for being shot down :)

I did this of course without a pencil nvhladek, it develops and morphs when I use the machine. It feels more like a brainstorm than when I sketch. Perhaps it looks too much like a brainstorm too. Do these have more promise as compared to any of the others. I will ask my designer to refine one or two.

I am braced ;) Lets call them:
X ———————————— Y ——————————————- Z

much more interesting than stick figures. Is that supposed to be a tie on the bottom of the P? Keep brainstorming and sketching! If you come up with a few dozen more ideas like your last three and hopefully you will get something that is exactly what your looking for.

Yes j.polo, that is a “want to be tie” It is the icon of business that is squeezed in there. Does it come off ok?

It looks like you’re trying to convey way too many concepts in a single logo:

1. The initials PET
2. An apple for the teacher
3. A tie to represent business people
4. A smiley face

Boil this down to one concept, or two maximum. What is the single most important idea you need the logo to get across?

- Lex

Maybe going back to “how English bridges the gap, gets you there” wouldn’t be such a bad idea. It’s a nice concept to start and you can focus on that to make a few sketches.

—
There must be some way out of here...

You are right Lex, those elements are all there. Plus a podium :) I am not sure if you want me to think about that question or answer it. I think it is an important question.

I want what EileenB wrote in another thread.

“If your target market is affluent clientele, having a professional logo is crucial to your success. The affluent are impressed by elegance and class and distrustful of anything less.

You want your brand to be something they brag about to their friends, right? You want your cards to be on refrigerators, right? Then, it’s all about appearances. Your logo has to get their attention and fit into their world.”

When I read that and look at my work I fall way short of “Professional” but maybe someone might hang it on the fridge. Big firm logos do not end up on the fridge usually.

My logo needs to be professional and memorable. I could live with just text as Sharon Van Lieu suggests and that would be professional but I think that is as exciting as skim milk. It is like a lawyers shield. The last logo up there, Z, has all those layers of information and it becomes more interesting to me that way. The initials PET are not relevant nor is a smiley face. The apple is only an American symbol for teachers (at least it does not mean teacher in Germany). The tie may be the best element in the bunch and it is sexist you could argue.

The logo must convey the singe idea “Quality” to my customers(teachers) and their customers (companies).

Quality.

Thanks for that question Lex, it made me think.

-Ken

I wasn’t referring so much to abstract imagery as much as considering an abstract concept.

So ’communication’ could be represented by an actual literal image of some sorts...book, etc.

The problem with the acronym approach is that it spells PET, which has way too much meaning a literal word.

“I think that is as exciting as skim milk”

Logos don’t have to be exciting. That’s what your overall marketing and branding is for.

Take SONY. Boring logo. But all their branding is often quite memorable (or, at least, ’exciting’ in some form)

Mate, its actually really interesting to see where this has gone from from your first ideas (last time i looked at this thread it was the preacher vs teacher thing). I think you’ve probably learned a hell of a lot and are maybe bit fed up (and confused?) by the subjectivity of the whole process.

I think you’re too focused and blinkered on this logo. You need to think of your brand as an entity. Where is your customer going to see your logo? Will it ever be in isolation? A logo is rarely seen in that context and i certainly wouldn’t try and convey ’professional’ or ’quality’ through any sort of imagery in isolation. You can’t staple a tie to your logo and say “we’re professional....look...a tie!” (actually, to me that imagery has violent undertones - look at the reservoir dogs branding).

How do you convey ’professional and ’quality’? Through your brand - its the way you answer your phone, how you invoice clients, the design of your logo, how you word an advertisement, the quality of your print, the coffee you serve, the course materials you hand out, the way you dress..etc etc

There seem to be quite a few suggestions for a typographic solution which you haven’t really thought much off - its the easiest thing in the world to look at a text logo in isolation and say ’its boring’ but i feel that you have to look at the bigger picture. For example look at the o2 logo - when do you ever see that on its own? It always has strong supporting imagery such as the bubbles or blue gradients which hold it all together and create interest. Seriously do some text explorations. You need to get out of microsoft word and into a notebook and pencil. Look at your brand - NOT just tne logo, look at graphical devices and imagery to be used in conjuction with your logo.

If you are able to, please take another look at the name - its horrible. ’Professional English Teachers’ is like ’A can of beige paint’ (compare www.books.com to www.amazon.com) if you aren’t able to make changes to the name at least get rid of the dot com - use the url as a tagline or something instead. YOU WILL STUGGLE TO CONVEY PROFESSIONAL OR QUALITY IF THE NAME OF YOUR COMPANY ENDS IN DOT COM.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts on taking another look at how you are getting on. I’m not in the best of moods as Ian Bell has just got out for 199 vs South Africa in the cricket, so apologies if i sound overly critical. Best of luck!

David, your first post and your pile of yellow paint which, reminds me of poop, left me with a distorted perception of you. I want to thank you for writing another post here. You make a lot of sense and your examples are clear. This process it a full dunk baptism in all things marketing. Normally I am the pocket protector in the basement developing the medical devices for you and your parents. Branding, logos, corporate image and so on is delivered to me in a box of business cards and the printer is full too. It is fascinating to me how deep all this marketing stuff goes. I sure know when I see something that looks unprofessional to me. However, creating “professional” from nothing is as challenging as creating a machine to drill holes in your head. Kudos to you all who share in these threads.

I know O2, it lives in my phone, cell and this dsl connection. I like them (Deutsche Telecom, T-mobile, is a company without scruples, beware! but that is something for another thread) My mark will never be alone. I am entering a niche market and there is only a small budget making it all happen.

No one has ever said the name is horrible. Long, not so good to write, ect. The name was my choice. It must not be so. However, short names are hard to get or expensive. New words like, gurg8.com are not easy to remember. I think this can of beige paint is easy to remember. Why is .com neither quality not professional?

I never understood cricket. Strange sport to me. Thanks for all your input, heeps!

Maybe ’horrible’ is too harsh - i guess what i mean is ’it could be better’. I’ve worked on branding projects with some pretty ordinary named companies in the past and the results have been successful. If the name is settled, thats absolutely fine, stick with it and do what you can to make it work. If you have the opportunity to look at alternatives, now is the time to do so. Research language acadamies, private training companies, professional training companies eg chef schools, medical, IT, flying etc.

’Dot com’ to me implies ’dot gone’ it has a sense of the temporary, the start up, the guy running a business from his garage with a ’get big quick’ weak business plan. It means all your business is done online. If I was to do business with a ’professional’ dot com company i would expect to do ALL that business online. I would expect to have a personal login, take my lessons, pay for my lessons, take tests, get my lesson materials, find teaching jobs, discuss things with other teachers/students etc. ALL ONLINE (sorry, i’m guessing at what it is you actually do). If ’dotcom’ is your business model, I would expect you to have a web 2.0 type brand - i would expect you to be innovative, simple, cashed-up, easy to use, cool, a thought leader.

You are 100% correct - creating ’professional’ and ’quality’ from nothing is very difficult as it is about so much more than a mark. You say you have a small budget which makes the task very difficult. You have to think seriously about a brand strategy, advertising, collateral, give-aways, web site etc. You need to be so focused and tight with your money - everything needs a purpose - cost/benefit.

You need to start somewhere and a logo is fine, but always think of it as within the context of your brand - thus a logo is never on its own. Like someone else said, look at supporting imagery that conveys the abstract concepts of your business. Combine it with your logo. Create mood boards, mission statements, taglines, core-concepts.

I’m not trying to make the whole thing sound daunting and i admire you for getting off your arse and doing something you see a niche market in.

I’ve taken Monday off work to watch the final (5th!) day of the cricket with some mates from work - i’m pretty sure the game will be a draw after the last 2 days of play but we are very much looking forward to it nonetheless!

I just realized if your going for a professional and elegant look why not just use the initials pet as if a personal monogram? See:

http://typophile.com/node/47193

J-polo, That could work if it was abstract enough. I mean, it can not read as pet, the one on your lap. I will consider it.

David,
The business model for PET is in plain terms an online classified ad. A yellow pages for teachers in a niche market. These teachers are already advertising in the local papers or another online classified or they are not advertising but working for a school which finds them the client and they earn an hourly rate for when they work (same work just less pay because they did not find the client). I want to exploit the power of the internet by offering unlimited text, pictures, video and so on. This can not be offered by print media at any price. It is not an original concept but nether is another taco stand in Los Angeles and a new one is born every day. Therefore, I want to do it better than the others out there and that starts with a great looking store front (logo, web site and brand). We will offer the best tasting tacos, I mean teachers :) You get the point.

I would like to hear from anyone reading this thread what you think of the name ProfessionalEnglishTeachers.

Rank it based on:
Easy to remember
Describes the product
Interesting
length
add your own thought

I have to keep in mind that a name like amazon.com is only known by anyone as a book seller because they spent 10s or 100s of millions of dollars to make that so and they have a world wide market. For me the market is the human resources departments of non English speaking countries and English speaking expats in the EU. I will not have 1000’s of unique visitors per day on my site. It would be great but I think that that is beyond the actual needs of the English services market. So many visitors would be the result of interesting content on the site and not the direct need of companies looking for teachers. I have ideas to generate traffic for exposure sake but this will not necessarily be selling the core product here, English language services.

Out of those cliparts I did kindda like A1, even though it was calling for changes and refinement.

But. It is true. It did have a mark that didn’t have any special meaning except seeing professionals.

But I’ve got a different idea. What is one of the most memorable English sign anyone can think of? The Union Jack. Maybe you could incorporate this into the professional people there and get a professional English mark... No teachers though yet... But someone may come up with something else that will also add that.

Initials (as suggested by previous poster) to my opinion work with professional services that are named with surnames (lawyers, fashion, architects etc.) I don’t think they are good for organisations. Not as completely clean initials.

I still think that direction proposed by vintagesignman in #2 is the best. Of course without the additional web address in black.

And to rate your name:
To me ProfessionalEnglishTeachers sounds like an organisation that is used for connecting teachers to exchange experience, ideas and organise conferences where they share teaching strategies that are emerging. That’s what Professional English Teachers sounds to me. I always think of it this way even though I’ve just read it’s more or less a completely different thing. That’s why I was also always going with vitage’s design idea. Looks as public organisation.

If your business is more or less online, your logo should be completely different. first of all, web address CAN’T be www.professionalenglishteachers.com. It’s ridiculously long and complicated. www.pet.com is wrong because it has a different meaning. But if your business is mainly online your name should consist of about 5 to 7 letters. And it’s going to be memorable as a web address.
___________
Robert Koritnik

The name reminds me of some sort of ’Professional Litigation Lawyers’ or ’Professional Software Testers’ social group on facebook that meets up once a month at waxy o’connors in Leicester Square...please remember to bring your name tag.

What about something like ’staffroom’ ’the staffroom’ ’junction’ ’blackboard’ ’schooltie’ ’mediaroom’ ’english101’ ’apple’...i don’t know, just some rough ideas, but i honestly think theres a thousand more aspirational names than ’professional english teachers’

The name describes the product to a “T”, but it seems quite long. It’s a mouthful. Imagine barely being able to peak English and having to read through those long words. From the marketing/name recognition standpoint, I think it would serve you well to go with something catchier.

I like David’s ’English101’, it’s brief, to the point and has alot of potential for a fun logo/logotype with the numbers.

Another random idea....spell the name purposely wrong: ’Lurn Inglesh’....or something like that. It catches attention; is easy to remember; and it has humor, which would give your service an edge in the industry. Maybe this particular example wouldn’t work, but if you can find something that incorporates humor, a play-on-words, SOMETHING that will catch the target market’s attention (and stick in their mind), this will greatly help you to differentiate your service from all the others.

like the worldwide known speak magazine. I still think there’s way too much overthinking ’concept wise’ at the time KC is sitting and making sketches. Boil it down to one or two, start from that and see where it takes you.

It would be wise, you’ll probably come up with new ideas and you’ll have a better understanding from where all this guys are talking you from.

—
There must be some way out of here...

This is a side line from logos but may be of interest to some of you looking for domain names now or in the future. The most common and valuable names are with .com. Simply because that is the first thing people think of and internet browsers will default to .com if you do not write it in the address.

My experience says that if a single word exists in the dictionary someone has bought this domain and is using or selling it (mostly selling). If it is a single word like “English” they want $100,000 or more (when it is for sale) if it is the word “inutile” is might cost $200. Two word names are the same, many that make sense and are short words are expensive. Businessenglish is “parked” which means not in use and probably (for sale). Three word names are easier to get because they are long: boardroomenglish is available. It is a nice name and says english and business. If a name has a “-” it is less desirable and therefore cheaper. business-english is also parked. If the name has a number like 1englsih.com it is less desirable and in this case taken as is english101. However businessenglish101.com is available. I am not sure if Europeans will understand the 101 reference. I doubt it. But that is my gathered experience about domain names in the last several months.

If you start to spell words wrong then there are lots more short words available. They are harder to remember and are therefore less desireble.

bizenglish101 is available
bizenglish is not
bizzenglish is available
etcte is availabe.... englsih trainers,coaches,translators ect. (you can build initials this way but combos with 4 or less letters are hard to find unless you use numbers too.)

This is a great site to look up .com, .net, and .orgs because it is as fast as you can type

http://www.brandgopher.com/

Try it out, it can be fun.

FYI businessenglish . com is $35,000. for the next 5 days. That is a real price quote I recieved today.