loose the artwork and stay with the name if its not copywrited, research

The colors I do not like. Past that I feel the concept can read so many ways it makes you work too hard to derive meaning. So I would stay well clear of the literal pen and ink graphic references.

I am confused as to why it is symmetrical? Is it because the shape as whole represents an ampersand? I see the ’P’ and the ’i’ but after that I feel the rest is erroneous.

well, my initials are plg. Thats where the left side and the white or lighter grey part comes from. so blue: P / white - light grey: L / dark grey: g / yellow-green: i (ink)

I don’t necessarily need every part of the logo to be understood right away. I sort of like the idea of it being a puzzle to figure out . . . obviously I don’t want it to be SO ambiguous as to be convoluted though.

not all people like to solve puzzles like you do!

I agree w/ dan research the name it is quite nice.

I dislike that you’re making the letters into a person, and the different versions with the pencil and brush forms evoke a sense of lumpy, malformed tails or oddly shaped bowel movements. The circle seems forced and tacked on. I don’t mean to be mean-spirited or disgusting; this is just what I see.

As for your contention regarding design puzzles: some reveal themselves as “a-ha!”, others obfuscate with “huh?”, and still others repulse with “what the hell?” If you’re insistent that your designs are puzzles, then I’m in between “huh?” and “what the hell?”

I agree with the other posts, however, that your concepts (“penn & ink” and “plg”) are brimming with expressive potential, and I am curious and excited to see what directions you develop as your research progresses.

—
Nick Hladek

With the Pen and Ink written below, you are implying that the graphic above represents this. So I was looking for a ’P’ and an ’I’ but I found so much more. Now, when you said about your initials being PLG that made way more sense. But it is still confusing because people will not draw that meaning unless you spell it out for them.

I thank each of you for your honest opinions. They’ve helped me gain a better perspective on this. My favorite part was also the name; my name being Penn, it seemed to be the perfect name for my design company. Sadly, however, after doing a little research on the name, I came up with a few other conflicting organizations / companies.

1. William Penn University’s literary magazine is called Penn & Ink http://www.wmpenn.edu/Academics/DivisionsAreasofStudy/Humanities/English...
2. There is a publishing company called Penn & Ink publishing http://pennandinkpublishing.com/
3. Pennandink.com is registered to Penn & Ink communications http://pennandink.com/
4. Similarly, if you search on google penn and inc (note the inc not ink), there is another design site coming soon under that title. (Even if it is crappy design, it’s still got a similar title and similar vocation as an organization) http://pnidesign.com/

It seems my title is dead in the water. If you guys don’t think that these companies are reason enough to give up the name, I have a question about domain names. I checked the domain: www.penn&ink.com and nothing came up, but I’m wondering if having an ampersand in a web address is possible. Is it?

Once again, thanks guys for all your help.

Wow. pnidesign.com. What a train wreck. It might be worth reworking your name in order not to be associated with that ... creative venture.

Let us know what you decide / develop.

—
Nick Hladek

okay, so no it’s not possible to have an ampersand in a domain name. But I did find that pennandink.net and pennandink.org are not registered names . . . so maybe a possibility. I’ll continue to mull over the name and see if anything else hits me.

@nvhladek Haha, yes . . . a creative venture indeed.

PLG seems like a good way to go. Too bad about Penn&Ink being taken already.

But I would be very careful about the monogram you’re creating. Some of the forms I’m seeing in those logos are suggestive of human anatomy, in ways I’m pretty sure you did not intend.

Well, as clever as Penn & Ink is... it’s kinda old timey sounding. How bout getting with the times Penn, and coming up with a name like DigitalPenn, PixelPenn. You know something strong and powerful, that’ll help you get that deep market Pennetration (sorry, couldn’t help myself).

@pica heh, yes I was aware of the resemblance to unsaid anatomy when I first started experimenting with this design. I’ll be sure to keep it in mind in further sketchings though.

@Asvetic the problem with names like digitalpenn and pixelpenn is that there isn’t really anything called a digital pen or a pixel pen . . . so the play on words is a bit weaker. I also like the “old timey” feel that penn&ink has; it sits better with me than a more modern approach. All that said, I do appreciate your suggestion. It opened up a different side to the name that I hadn’t thought about.

I’ll also be posting soon some of the ideas I’ve been playing around with.

I actually really like the name penn&ink. It has a robust, no bullshit feel.

I think the whole digital/pixel penn thing is very cheesy...1992.

Thanks for your thoughts David. I agree with both of them.

Hey, I was just trying to think OUTSIDE the box here. You specifically pointed out how there were at least 4 uses of Penn&Ink already... making it NOT original.

But, it’s your name and your business. I’ll bow out of this post because it’s clear I’m not welcome with my ideas. Sorry, I wasted my time.

Yeah, it’s clear everyone hates your opinions. You clearly aren’t very good at taking criticism or at reading through each part of a post.

quoted from earlier:
All that said, I do appreciate your suggestion. It opened up a different side to the name that I hadn’t thought about.

Apologies for the stream of images in advance. These are the few new logo ideas I’ve been playing around with. I won’t say anymore about them, I’d just like to get some gut reactions first.

p.s. I’ve decided to stick with the name penn&ink and ignore the other organizations. They’re not really big enough I think to deter me from a name I like so much.

I really like the name, although I cant give you any compelling reasons why. However, I can critique the logo. I like the idea behind the first attempt, but agree with some of the earlier posters. However, I do like the color combination, without the blue. The greyscale and chartreuse work for me.

Finally, I like where you are going with the cropped ampersand in the second set of images. However, I would apply your earlier color scheme (without the blue. if you need another color consider something else) and I’m not sure about the circle. It doesnt feel like it belongs to me.

I’d reallyreally like to see that.

:)

Here’s with the previous color scheme (minus blue) and dot removed:

I like these. Is that a lightlight peachy pink in the first example? if you are going to go with that (which i dont mind at all), how about warming up your grey a little? Additionally, I do like the crop here, but I was liking the other crop you had going on more.

Otherwise, I also am partial to the example with the white background. Perhaps warm up the white a smidge?

I’m nuts. I know.

Overall, I live the upper right logo. I could really see that as a good graphic element as well.

Here’s with the other cut of the ampersand and the background grey and white warmed up a scoche. Do they need more do you think? What about placement . . . this has been the placement for this version before, but I’m considering moving the ampersand all the way down and pushing the name over to the right (similar to the ones above).

I appreciate the comments you’ve been making on color Katelynn. (I hope you don’t mind I use your real name. Referring to you as tearsforsappho didn’t seem right in the context.) They’ve really helped and I’m liking where this is going. I’ll make a few more comments about what I’ve been thinking after I get more people’s reactions too.

I really like this new direction. It accomplishes so much more with so much less, especially compared with your first treatment.

—
Nick Hladek

You get some really interesting shapes when cropping the ampersand. Just a thought - you could use different crops of the ampersand as secondary identity imagery. Back of the business cards - even different from card to card, watermark of the letterhead, back of the envelope...

Or even (and i know a lot of people will say you shouldn’t do this, but i would definitely explore it).... do it for your primary identity - keep the palette and text of your mark consistent but maybe the ampersand symbol could have different crops from piece to piece? Would give the whole identity a freshness and dynamic feel. You could even dump the ampersand from the logo and just use it as a secondary element.

Just some thoughts anyway

I actually like your idea of playing around with the cropping of the ampersand. I’ve always liked the idea of keeping either a mark or color palette consistent and then manipulating the other elements; like you said, it gives everything a much more dynamic feel and keeps people interested in the icon (which is always a good thing). The one thing to be careful of is changing too much too often so that it’s not recognizable anymore.

The thing I like most about these crops of the ampersand is that they both contain traces of a “P” and an “I”. Both letters are perhaps a bit more visible when the ampersand is moved down and cropped like it was in the first set of the current color palette.

Thanks for the thoughts.

The cropping works better for me as well. More subtle and it makes more sense.

- Lex

Thanks for the comments guys. I’m happy with this new direction. Now I have a question about fonts . . . I’m looking for any suggestions you guys might have for fonts that would pair well with Didot (the font used in the logo). I’m thinking something sans-serif for possibly body text on a website, or contact info on a business card . . . things like that.

New series look fresh. The big ampersand directs the eye to “penn&ink” beautifully. Top right of the last four pieces is the one I like best. Didot is too fragile for small sizes. You could try narrowing the right side of the rectangle to the left and pulling “penn&ink” to the right a bit.

I’d get rid of the dot above the i letter in Penn&ink, and would design the & sign so it will ‘carry’ the bigger dot to ‘complete’ this ‘missing’ dot. I think… :-)

I like the cropping of the ampersand ...

have you considered rendering the logo in pen and ink ...
an ink rendering of a didone would add some personality.

A ruling pen is so much fun to use.

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/13

@LamaKova As of right now, the dot has been done away with. I’m having a bit of trouble picturing what it is you’re suggesting I do with the “&” sign. Is it that I design it so that the piece the dot was originally floating above (the top of the “I”) have a ball end instead of the flat top? Or am I way off? I’m interested to know what you meant.

@bjharvey I’ve always been interested in trying new types of pens and writing instruments, so naturally I’m interested in your idea. Of those on that page that you linked, which would you recommend most?

Thanks for the suggestions.

If it is still relevant:
I didn’t see the traces of the letters “P” and “I” in the cropped ampersand.
When you added this round shape (‘ball’, ‘dot’) to the ampersand, It conflicted in my opinion with the counter shape of the cropped ampersand.

What I meant was:
Make a connection between those two round shapes so you’ll get a black dot and a white dot (by changing the shape of the ampersand counter to be more round).
Lower the white dot a bit (in a diagonal line).
You can use this ampersand design in the name: Penn&ink, but get rid of the dot above the letter “I” in ink.

i was fortunate to sit in on a workshop with Paul Shaw at Typecon NY, and he suggested the ruling pens.

I have this one

and another one from a different site. (can’t recall the site).

beyond ruling pens ....

there are dozens of great instruments that produce a variety of results, from brushes
to steel pens to cut pieces of bamboo. Different paper will also give you dramatically different results.

Some of the calligraphers here at Typophile (Michael Clark or Stephen Rapp) could probably give you more specific suggestions.

also, Josh Scruggs has an excellent post about a tool he made from Dr. Pepper can.

and finally, at most bookstores, there are great books on lettering and calligraphy, and quite a few of them come with tools and tutorials. It’s a nice skill to develop.

I remember seeing a christmas card from an agency called ’and advertising’. It was die cut in a way that would allow you to construct a three dimensional ampersand. Was very clever and uber cool. Will have a look in the ideas box at work on mon and see if i can find it for you.

@lama Thanks for the sketch and clarifying. Interesting idea. I’ll play around with it and see what I come up with. Thanks :)

@bj Thanks for the tips on writing instruments. I’ll definitely experiment with handwriting this. No telling how well it’ll turn out though. At the very least it’ll be good practice for me.

@david A 3D ampersand? Very cool. I’m interested to see what that looks like!

I was just on the Hoefler & Frere Jones site and they recommend using Gotham as a complimentary font to Didot.

My my. I really do like how those came out. Sorry, I was a space cadet for a few days, and forgot to check back. The top two really stand out to me.

I saw that you were considering changing the crop, and i really dont think you need to. I like the vertical placement of the ampersand, and it think the positive and negative space work really well together in that sample.

As far as a pairing font, I’d have to agree that a nice sans would be good. After the strong contrast of Didot, it could be a nice place to rest your eyes. I had just been on H&F J’s site, and saw that too! Try it, see how it looks.

I dont mind at all, you arent the first to call me by name.

I like the amphersand in itself.

but i dont like the concept you have of cropping it to form a P and I. First of all it took me a while to get it and secondly its too contrived and fussy.

I would explore some completely new ideas

@das1010
Thanks for reminding me! I had forgotten that they suggested compatible fonts. I do like Gotham too, but unfortunately don’t currently own it. Not sure if I’m wanting to spend 100 bucks on it :) I think I’ll look around for some similar fonts first.

@Katelynn
Thanks for your support and helpful comments.

@CharmingMan
I’m not exactly cropping the ampersand in order to form the P and I. It’s more of a nice little detail or surprise that is hiding in the logo. It’s not important to me that people spot them right away. Thanks for the concern.

Fair enough. I hear ya on the money thing. I found that Akzidenz Grotesk has some similar characteristics and is something you may have available.

Check out Avenir as well. However, I am not sure if it follows together as well.

@das
Thanks for all the font suggestions. I actually don’t have either of those either (guess I need to beef up my font library). Maybe I’ll just get Gotham . . . I’ve been looking at it for a while now anyway.

Here’s a few of the latest iterations too. I moved the larger crop of the ampersand, and standardized the location of “penn&ink” in all of them (in case I decide to alternate crops). I also included a different color variation that maybe could be used with a gloss on paper. It’s very light, I know, so it probably won’t be my main identity. But I like it for secondary, almost subliminal, uses. (Inserting it in places where the reader/visitor won’t necessarily need to see it.)

Again, I’d go with the bottom versions since the “PI” of the ampersand gets lost in the top row.

- Lex

I agree with Lex. But I’d also try to use the same colour in the penn&ink lettering for the ampersand as it is in the cropped version to connect the two. Just for an experiment. If it doesn’t work I’d stick with the last version you posted and stop. Because it’s already a finished logo. Much better than anything I’ve seen for some time.
___________
Robert Koritnik

The original logo is much too phallus. Its what I thought of right away.