Coruña (now with italic and weights)

Primary tabs

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
Coruña (now with italic and weights)
0

I just finished working a preliminary version of Greek for Coruña.

It looks pretty good to me but I'm sure I've got a lot of mistakes so I figured a pair (or more) of fresh eyes could help me spot any problems with it. The PDF has the modern alphabet and then all the archaic letters and most of the symbols (but not Coptic). I'm a little unsure on some of the archaic letters but from lookin around I think I'm not the only one. Most fonts I've seen have vastly different styles.

Update: I'm almost done with a complete range of small caps (yes, even polytonic) which the base alphabet can be seen in the v 0,9b file. I have the full polytonic range done for lowercase and 90% of uppercase so I included that. Italic is done for modern monotonic greek but has no archaic or polytonic (yet). Spacing is greatly improved.

December Update: Now switching gears to polishing out the italic and bold. I THINK I might not have made the bold dark enough, but since I've only done the lowercase I figure now is the time to get the comments before I do all of the letters.

David Yoon's picture
Offline
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 - 7:58pm
0

Here's my 2 obols' worth as a nonspecialist. I'm also not a designer, so I'll leave comment on the modern alphabet to those more competent than I am. You may want to check your outline directions, though. I think in general you've done a reasonable job of trying to make up forms that fit the logic of your modern alphabet, considering that there really isn't much to go on for a number of the characters that never existed until very recently, but in some cases the results are a little disconcerting.

Sampi is a problem. While I understand the reasons that they decided to separate archaic sampi and modern sampi and then make them both have uppercase and lowercase forms, I think that in practical terms it's completely perverse. The road to hell, etc. Anyway, we're stuck with two characters that never before existed. For your uppercase modern Sampi, I'd suggest making it look a bit less like a flipped euro sign - perhaps tilt it a bit counterclockwise. Your archaic Sampi should have stronger downstrokes on the sides; at the present weight they look more like big serifs than actual strokes. The lowercase modern sampi looks like it has been squashed flat like a bug on a wall; normally there's more curvature to its spine, and the lower of the two strokes in the middle might want to have its connection moved up a bit, so it doesn't look like it's at the same angle as the upper one. For the archaic sampi, you should make up something more easily recognizable as a cursive of your uppercase form. What you have there looks kind of squashed again, and perhaps too upsilon-ish. I'd be inclined to make a single curved stroke over the top, like in some uncial forms, rather than the two curves you've got there.

The uppercase San should have straight sides, like your Mu, except that the central "v" part doesn't go down to baseline. The resemblance is inconvenient, but the ancient alphabets that used San never had a Mu of Trajanic form - the sides of the Mu were diagonal and/or only the left stroke went down to baseline.

The lowercase digamma is a little odd; the two horizontal strokes might want to look more visually unified. At the least, I would suggest that it needs to be brought more into the same chirographic model as your modern letters - the horizontal strokes on sigma and tau end in a slight upcurve, not a downward hook like you have on the lower horizontal stroke of the digamma. The same applies to your heta.

The archaic Koppa and Stigma need longer stems, to differentiate them more clearly from Omicron and lunate Sigma.

The descender on the lowercase archaic koppa looks too slanted. Normally it's either vertical or mostly vertical with a curve or flick to the right at the bottom.

The lowercase modern koppa also looks a bit squashed; perhaps try curving the left stroke more to the left as it descends, and maybe not take it all the way to the baseline?

The lowercase Pamphylian digamma probably shouldn't have so much descender; it looks too much like an eta.

Your various lunate Sigmas look a bit anemic compared to the other uppercase letters, probably because of where you cut the ends. How are you handling the terminals on Latin C?

I hope all this is at least a bit useful, and I recognize the irony of my giving design advice, when I doubt that I could do anywhere near as well as you have.

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

My comments about your Greek characters for your Corunna typeface are the following:
Capitals
Sigma: its construction is a little unbalanced compared to the two Greek prototypes fonts.
Xi and Rho: are missing from your sample.
Phi: is too narrow.
The accent on the Greek Capital vowel letters should be moved 20-30 em to the left because they are too close to the letters.
Lower case
nu: due to its construction can be confused with upsilon.
epsilon and psi: are too narrow.
delta: is too wide.
beta: needs alternate (as shown in the prototypes that I am sending).
xi: is missing from your sample.
phi and psi: should have the same descender endings.
phi, psi and omega: should have about the same width.
omega: open up the stroke endings otherwise it will confused with the symbol of infinity or two omicron stuck together.
kappa: nowadays we use in Greek texts the Latin lower case ‘x’ instead of chi so the kappa you designed will be confused with the currently used ‘x’ as chi.
pi: the left hand side ending of the horizontal stroke of pi should be extended 30-40 em to the left, otherwise the letter looks unbalanced.
pi: the right hook (ending of the right vertical stem at the baseline) of pi should be a little bit more narrow, say the average of the hook of iota and tau.
I like your typeface very much and among its merits and most important its distinct and novel Greek classical typographic style.

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

Wow, thanks for such a detailed critique from both of you. I wasn't expecting anything quite so detailed. I should be able to get a new version up in the next day or two. I've already got most of the archaic letters redone.

The lunate sigmas are at present directly using the latin C (or reversed with weight-adjustment). I'll double check that to make sure I didn't accidentally lob of some weight by accident.

Natasa, so these days chi doesn't really descend? Would it be best to raise or lower the kappa's bottom stem's connection point (eg, make it much more like a K shape or more like my alternate kappa with the И shape?

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Guifa, great to hear from you, I will send you some designs for kappa, so that you have a clearer morphology scheme. Also I will scan certain 'Greek' parts from the "Specimen Book of "MONOTYPE NON-LATIN FACES and forward them to you.

Could you be so kind as to help me with the following:

I need some help and directions about how to go doing the following. Can anyone help me please.

1. How do I insert an icon for my ID in Typophile?

2. Which is the ideal size in mm and resolution for inserting / posting images?

3. How do I post a PDF file in a thread (instead of an image - which is the default type)?

4. I have sent a typeface for critiqe under a preliminary name (Thetis) and now I want to alter to another one (Semele) which is the final name, do I start a new thread under the final name? Do I contact the Typophile webmaster for that? What would you advise that I should do?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

1. Click on your username either next to your post in the thread or above the post new comment box. This brings you to your user profile page. Click the "edit" link from the control bar on that page and follow the instructions on the next page.

2. Maximum dimensions for user icons are 60x60 and the maximum size is 24 kB. Inline images can be up to 599 pixels wide. Wider images will be displayed, but must be scrolled horizontally to view in full. There appears to be no limit on image height. PNG is the preferred format, but JPG and GIF work too.

3. You can attach file types other than inline images only if you are the originator of the thread. If you are the originator, you can click "edit" above the first post, and upload PDF or other file formats to the Typophile server for others to download using the features on that page. This can be done by you at the moment you originate the thread or any time after.

4. If you are the originator of the thread, you can also edit the thread title through the same page where you attach a file.

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

You can add your icon under the "My account" link at the top right off any page.

Hrm, in mm I'm not sure. For images the size is around 500ish pixels to prevent wrapping. For quick samples most people on here post a JPG and for detailed work attach a PDF.

You can post a PDF by editing your first post in a thread. You can't though if you didn't start the thread.

When you're viewing your thread, there's an "Edit" link at the top right by "View", you can it adjust the name of the thread. So, let's say I wanted to change the name of Coruña to Kορώνα. I might rename the thread "Kορώνα (was Coruña Greek Version)" that way people can keep track of it. Cuttlefish has been using the structure "Agamemnon continued, v.XX + what's new".

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Thanks a lot Cuttlefish and Guifa. I will try out what you suggested.

And one other thing, at what resolution in dpi should the image posted be ?

Guifa and Cuttlefish, a question for you both. I have two very important PDF files that show in great detail the Alternate designs of Greek Characters (Old Style and Contemporary), how can I possible send them to you INTACT and as PDF files?

Jason Pagura's picture
Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 - 6:19pm
0

I think the browsers will default the pixel pitch to screen resolution. Setting at 72dpi (normal screen resolution on Macs) should be adequate and have no adverse results. Total pixel size is more important.

You can upload those PDFs to your own thread and notify us once they're up there.

Sorry for jacking your thread, Guifa.

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

Haha no problem. I just made a sticky on my computer to make sure to hijack the Agamemnon v42 Georgian Arabic Hebrew thread with the technical details of A4 layouts ;-)

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Thaks Guifa for the image posting tips. I will apply them.

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Guifa hi, I have just posted the AlternateDesignOfGreekCharacters.pdf that I promised at Semele (previously known as Thetis). I belive that you will find it of some interest to you in respect to designing Greek characters.

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Guifa hi, just now I found time to pay due attention to the design morphology of the Corruna kappa and alternate kappa as I was away for the weekend.

Initially I found and Old Style Greek typeface by Compugraphic called Aztec. I am attaching a JPG with the entire alphabet.

Then, replying to your question ‘Would it be best to raise or lower the kappa’s bottom stem’s connection point (eg, make it much more like a K shape or more like my alternate kappa with the И shape?’ I tried out some alternate designs and I am attaching them as well, in case they can be of any use to you.

In the last line these three characters are actually another way that kappa used to designed, it wasn’t used much and yet even nowadays it is found often in contemporary Greek handwriting.

By the way I just uploaded SemeleItalic to my ‘Semele’ thread at the critique forum and I am quite eager to hear your views about it

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Hey godfather of my Semele, I just uploaded a Semele(Thetis) Italic text sample (just like you suggested) to my ‘Semele’ thread at the critique forum and I am would love to hear ideas about it.

As I have written before, the Corrina nu could be confused with the Corrina upsilon due to its morphological similarities with nu.
So, I am posting now 5 alternate nu’s in case they can be of any use.

Also, could you please upload a PDF file with all the archaic Greek letterforms so that I can study them?

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

I saw your Semele text sample. It's wonderful. I could completely see an art history book being set in it. I do have some more detailed comments coming soon.

I've had to take a break from font working to finish up my thesis (non-font related) so I'll be out of font work for a few days :( But I'll try to post the progress I've made on the greek soon.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

Okay, new update and a big one at that. David, how do the updated archaic characters look? Natasa, FontForge screwed up exporting the lowercase upsilon, but I've kept it the same and instead edited the nu, does it look a bit better? same for the ka. I wonder if I'm still a bit reluctant to change it too far. Feel free to rip it apart :)

The new sample has a side-by-side polytonic greek and english of a random document i pulled from Perseus. I like the way the two go together but again, comments are alwys welcome.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

sasapetrova's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 - 5:34am
0

Hi Guifa, long time no see, great that you are back here again. So, you are using FontForge? I thought that you would be using FontLab instead.

The ‘nu’ looks much better now and it differs from ‘upsilon’. The kappa is very distinctive and looks quite novel in design

Ripping apart your typeface isn’t my style. Nymus wrote something for all those designing Oldstyle Greek typefaces and I will quote it verbatim as it is somewhat relevant.

He wrote: ‘I have found out that the only Greek typefaces that are universally accepted and admired are all those that are digitized from hot metal types designed by great masters such as Bodoni, Baskerville and others... All those typefaces have certain of their letterform characteristics (hooks, blobs etc) enlarged in ways similar to the enlargement of facial characteristics in caricatures, this keeps the individual style of the typeface quite strong even at small point sizes, this is very important...’

Personally I would add another point: The morphology of any novel designs of Oldstyle Greek characters should not only follow their respective and traditional Greek calligraphic forms (see Vergikios manuscripts of the Grecs du Roi) but they must also be different in concept and look than all the pre-existing Oldstyle Greek typefaces. For example TimesTen differs in quite a number of characters from TimesNewRoman and Porson, Minion Pro differs almost totally from Monotype’s Greek Upright 90.

Now there are still a few of your Greek letterforms that may be enhanced a little more:

LOWER CASE

lambda:

the ascender is too high and the letterform looks a bit like a stork, what could be done is to cheat a little and smoothen the left hand joint at the x-height. This is something that happens also with typefaces like Future that have quite small x-height in relation to the ascender height (in delta for instance) and in that case adjustments like the one that I am suggesting are made.

chi:

it is extremely beautiful, quite admirable.

omega:

the endings of the two horns should be moved 20 em upwards, and the blob in the middle 20 em downwards and it should be thickened a little also.

pi:

The upper horizontal stroke it would be better to be moved 20 – 30 em to the right for more balance.

CAPITALS

I noticed that some of your capitals are asymmetrical (Theta, Omicron, Tau, Phi, Psi and Omega) obviously it must have been done on purpose, and yet it might be better to try designing them symmetrical as well and see how it goes.

Also in Kappa and Upsilon the joints in the middle are rather too low, maybe raising them higher it would look better.

Epsilon:

The middle bar is much thicker than the other two, it should have the same stroke thickness and its length increased by 30 – 40 em at least.

Sigma:

Its forms don’t balance well, some readjustments should be made.

The widths of Alpha, Delta, Eta, Lambda and Pi should be readjusted to bypass certain tical illusions, for instance as Alpha, Delta and Lambda are made from the same mold so to say they end up looking dissimilar width-wise. Therefore the following alterations should be made to their width:

Width_of_Delta = Width_of_Alpha minus 10 em
Width_of_Lambda = Width_of_Alpha minus 10 – 20 em

Similarly:

Width_of_Pi = Width_of_Eta minus 10 – 20 em

For all the above I am uploading for you an image file with all the above suggestions.

By the way I have also uploaded SemeleArchaicGreekLetters15N.pdf which might be of some interest to you as it contains all the Greek Archaic letterforms.

David Yoon's picture
Offline
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 - 7:58pm
0

Definitely much improved, Matthew. It's hard to know what to do with some of the new characters, and I think your solutions are generally fairly sensible. The lowercase archaic sampi might benefit from having the top arched instead of flat like a tall tau: there's an uncial example at [[http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Grec_oncial_sampi.png]] - you would want more curvature than that to fit with the style of your lowercase, obviously.

The lowercase modern koppa and sampi are characters that are actually used, so they matter in a way that many of the Page 2 characters don't. They both look kind of squashed to me. To show you what I mean, I've used Photoshop to put them into their use context, so you can see how they look when juxtaposed with the other letters. The two numbers here are 596 using koppa and 1940 using sampi:

(edited to add:) I realize you've done the first and second pages at different sizes, so the letters don't really go together anyway, but I think you can still see what I mean about not being wide enough.

David Yoon's picture
Offline
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 - 7:58pm
0

I finally found the time to do it a bit better - I scaled the glyphs so they're all at roughly the same size, so it now looks less bizarre. I also tried to get the keraiai placed more accurately.

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

So how does the bold italic look? The italic is pretty much set like this but the bold I really would like some comments on.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)

Steve Peter's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 May 2004 - 11:00am
0

One thing that really sticks out for me (being a linguist) is the a in the italic, which looks like the symbol we use for schwa (a reduced vowel).

Matthew Stephen Stuckwisch's picture
Joined: 7 Feb 2007 - 10:21am
0

Since I also work with linguistics, I recognize the potential confusion. But I have two seperate forms, one a bit smoother but potential more confusion and another that's got a hard straight bar that makes it quite clear which is which.

Basically the idea will be for linguistics to use the a as you see here, the single bowl a, and the sharpened shchwa. For natural languages that use the schwa, the smoother form can be used against the single bowl a.

«El futuro es una línea tan fina que apenas nos damos cuenta de pintarla nosotros mismos». (La Luz Oscura, por Javier Guerrero)