Leporello (sans his master)

Too bad we can’t have MM Leporello ;-)

Overall, I like it, especially the lc g.

The entry stroke on lc b and lc thorn isn’t working for me, although I like it on the lc i. Perhaps it’s because I then expect it elsewhere, like on lc h, l, k, etc. Also, the counter in uc Thorn looks a bit small to me, especially next to the lc version.

Interesting stuff.
There are some strong stylistic ‘contradictions’ in this ‘face (see, for example, h versus n). I wonder what’s the rationale behind such design conflicts. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, per se, I just think that the contradictions are too strong/ evident here. The letters need a little more formal coherence, IMHO.

I like the uppercase a lot, but I find the lowercase too flowery in places (entry strokes etc.). That’s a taste thing though. I’m not qualified to offer any professional opinions …

R

Interesting, but some glyphs needs work.
Lc & uc “s” is too weak, lc “j” is a little bit too heavy. You should shift ogonek to the right on “Aogonek” and “aogonek”. Lc “k” is too wide for me. All alternative acutes (Polish kreska) on sacute, cacute, nacute, oacute and zacute have too much stepper slope, and now should go to the left. It is nice that you did an alt.acute but for me the first one, is enough for Polish language too. All accents above (not dots) are to weak (light) for me.

You have taken on an interesting challenge of having a greater variety of treatments of individual letters, and still have the whole harmonize and balance. I think a PDF with text would help to see how well it harmonizes or fails to and contradicts itself. The few words you posted promise a nice harmony and balance. If it does harmonize it would be valuable, as you would have achieved a greater differentiation of letters, and possibily easier readability, than is usual in a sans.

I get an error message when I try to start up your PDF. ‘Acrobat cannot decript this document’. Can you check it?

The more I look the more intriguing this is. Overall, I think the ‘inconsistencies’ work harmoniously together-though I want to see that PDF!

I wonder whether the h or k or both need the b treatment for the sake of the harmony of the font. Even though they don’t have a ‘reflection’ they could, and it might look more harmonious. The ldq would still have a visual ‘reason’ not to have the bend.

The only character I don’t think works is the g, because unlike the rest it looks odd to me and the oddness doesn’t go away. A single story g might still keep to your design rules for this font and work better.

Hey Chris, you’re talking alphabet reform! A pet project of mine since ‘98. Using “conflicts” in the Latin alphabet*, I arrived at the following structures: http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/maslucida.gif
It’s not a font, of course — just structures, and explaining everything is a pretty long story — like the fact that they represent an “ideal”** and a given actual font can “tame” the structures as needed — perhaps arriving at somewhere close to Leporello.

* http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/m&s.gif

** Actually, they need tweaking. Again.  :-/

You could read my essay in this book if you’re interested in learning more:
http://www.gunnarswanson.com/GDandR/GDandR_Book.html

Of course to some people it’s the highest form of Blasphemy to suggest that their alphabet is anything short of divinely perfect — and they can hold a covert grudge against you for all Eternity, devoting a big chunk of their lives to striking down anything else you might ever say about anything at all, using any maneuver, any awkward angle of attack — such is the nature of true Devotion, I guess…

—

BTW, I couldn’t load the PDF either.

hhp

> It’s not a font, of course — just structures, and
> explaining everything is a pretty long story — 
> like the fact that they represent an “ideal”** and
> a given actual font can “tame” the structures as
> needed — perhaps arriving at somewhere close to
> Leporello.

I understand that polishing those structures and making it a real font would require it to be ‘less ideal’, but on the other hand, how can you measure, how can you tell if it ‘works’ or not if it’s not a typeface, just an ‘idea’ of typeface? I mean, how do you know that it needs re-tweaking? I only ask because I really want to know.


> You could read my essay in this book if you’re
> interested in learning more: […]

I’ve read it. I like your ideas about reform, but the article seems ‘dated’ now (well, probably because I read Typophile every day).

Oh, and thanks for the explanations, Chris.
I’d like to see the PDF too, to see how the divergent letterforms work in text.

> how can you tell

You can never know, but you can always “tell”, so to speak. Fear of being wrong is something you have overome to create progress, otherwise you’re just rehashing established practice. So don’t really want to know, really want to invent, I guess.

Yes, the article is dated. But it still ruins lives.  ;->

hhp

OK, the PDF works now.

Not surprisingly, this is a face that cannot be evaluated in the normal fashion — otherwise one would blindly conclude “it’s ugly” and leave it at that. The relevance of such a design is tied to the existence of the “dark half” of reading, the half where a reader doesn’t notice the details of the font, but is affected by it nonetheless.

Evaluating such a font requires a very strong understanding of readability, and the deeper mechanisms of reading, for example to what extent familiarity matters, and what details readers notice. I don’t know anybody who can do this. But I can try to share some of my own hazy insight.

- I think the “a” needs its lower-right spur.
- And the “g” needs its ear.
- The “k” needs staggered arms, maybe one of them bowed.
- The “v”/”w”/”y” are too static as a group.
- I’d make the “J” descending.
- The “@” is too chirographic.
- I’d flatten the UC acutes/graves.
- The BP is off.
- That “L” in the Pilcrow is bril!
- I don’t think the Differential should lean.
- The Florin should lean though.

BTW, looking at the vertical proportions and color, it looks like a face that would work best at larger text sizes, like around 12 point. But for that the spacing is slightly loose.

Whatever you do though, don’t expect virtually anybody to understand what this is about — the Modernist age is not good at tolerating such extrapolation — it’s just something you’ll have to believe in, and apply in the best way you can.

—

> If that were not so, what would we strive for?

I feel the same way. But some people like to celebrate more than strive. I guess they have more fun though.

> some of the letterform structures you used
> in your GIF look very Middle Eastern

It’s possible — although probably based more on my own [circumstantial] background than some actual “old-world” merit…

hhp

Hmmm. The text in the PDF for me doesn’t solve the harmony problem well enough. It may be the width of the letters is the problem rather than the forms, though. I suspect that you need to narrow the stemless letters — doesn’t Dax do this? And also the a seems too wide to me. The flag at the top of the b sticks out too much; its seems visually higher than the straight ascenders — would shortening it make it more harmonious?

You have quite a challenge getting even rhythm into your unconventional forms, but if you succeed you will have something unique. I don’t think it’s there yet.

Please, look at Victor Gaultneys essey: “Problems of diacritic design for Latin script text faces”.
www.sil.org/~gaultney/ProbsOfDiacDesignLowRes.pdf.

Look at acute in Gentium and Linotype Palatino. Palatino has acute about 27 degree, Gentium has acute about 35 degree. This is correct for Polish language.

aogonek and eogonek looks good now (may be very good).

Look at http://fonty.pl/pliki/eurofonty.pdf
Most of Polish diacritics are correct in this example. (But not all of them)

When ogonek is merged with lowercase a in order to create aogonek, should be placed near the right boundary of “a” and sometimes can exceed it.
Ogonek in eogonek should not exceed “e”. Yours is OK.

> http://fonty.pl/pliki/eurofonty.pdf

Huh. Are these legit derivations?

And I like that Twirl on the last page!
Assuming it’s also derived, does anybody know what the original font is?

hhp

I think the narrower letters and the change in the serif on the b are both good improvements.

Now I see your idea of great variation in the letters in your ‘cloaked’ version. It think it is too much.

There is a balance between repetition and variation in any pattern to make it work aesthetically. I have heard, I forget where, that in music it is about 50-50. If the melody doesn’t have some kind of repetition it doesn’t come together as a melody, but just is a series of notes. Thus you have the typical establishment of the theme in four bars, the next four bars with variation of the theme, the third four a different variation, and return to the theme.

In other words with too much variation a melody just doesn’t come together as a ‘gestalt’ that the mind can wrap itself around. On the other hand, if there is too much repetition it becomes boring and annoying, like the infernal ‘Doublemint’ jingle.

I think that this kind of patterning principle also holds for readability. And I think you have gone too far in the variety direction. But if you figure a way to pull back — there are a lot of ways to do it because you have so much variation — you could end up with something that is balanced and innovative.

By the way, the narrowed top of the g works now for me, where it didn’t before. But I think the connecting loop to the bottom is off somehow now.

I’m just working on my first typeface, so be forewarned you are not getting the voice of experience here.

The thing I like most about this now are your serifs at the top of the ascenders.

My suspicion is that if the n, h, and o were slightly narrower it would make for a better rhythm in the text.

I wonder whether it would be better with the l with the serif on the ascender. The bl combination is a little jarring in the text. Having the d with no serif is more ‘natural’ looking as the serif on the d in a serif face is sometimes different than all the other ascenders.

The bottom serif on the l — should the terminal be more similar to the ascender serifs?

The i serif. I think this needs to relate more to the ascender serif also — maybe just being shorter would work. Now, with the serif bending down, it think it should overshoot like the o; it looks short now. Also you could consider putting a stem on the r. As the Underware fellows explain here the r usually has more of a notch than the m,n. And that helps keep the rn from looking like an m. If you are going to have as serif on the i you might consider doing something on the j and r also.

I don’t know what can work here, but I do think that the serifs on the ascenders are a success, and working the face to make it harmonize and work best with these is the way to go.

Chris, you’re not speaking to yourself — on my end I was saving the best for last.

Few people can appreciate what you’re doing — it’s way out there — it requires a dedication to the dark depths of reading — something very rarely promoted.

Know that most type designers who see this will think it’s garbage (and most of them won’t have the balls to tell you). Some people will think it’s “cute”. My advice is this: filter feedback based on context: learn to ignore certain specific kinds of advice from people who might be great conventional font designers but have no real idea of the dark currents sweeping to and fro in the recesses of the human brain. Or: Don’t ask a poodle trainer to handle an anaconda.

—

It’s a good time to back up.

What I think you should go for (and you might already be doing this) is a font that creates a texture (at reading point sizes) the layman won’t reject, but diverge the forms as much as possible nonetheless. I think you’re actually being slightly conservative! But it will make for a great test case. You will have to publish a booklet (not related to typography) that uses it, and ask laymen (NOT other designers) what they think — and ask them in the most indirect -even devious- ways — to see what’s really going on.

Some specifics:
-Why are the caps and numerals so conventional?
-I’d make the eye of the “e” smaller.
-I’d make the “s” narrower and the “y” wider.
-I think your accents are generally smallish.
-Try making the blank space a hair bigger.

—

> There is a balance between repetition and
> variation in any pattern to make it work
> aesthetically.

But there’s a critical difference here between display and text, between deliberative and immersive reading. The threshold of harmony/discord depends on how deep into the subconscious you’re aiming.

What is seen as discord by our finicky -and subjective- conscious aesthetic appreciation is used by the subconscious to read more efficiently.

> the infernal ‘Doublemint’ jingle.

Tellingly in fact, a study has shown the more obnoxious a jingle the more memorable it is! What we think we like isn’t necessarily what we really like.

> I never liked the stepped “k”

But it’s less of an “x”.

hhp

Chris,

Yes I’m a neighbor not so far away. I do think your narrowing the o helped a lot. I don’t quite know how to react to the typeface as it stands. It has polish, and a much more lively texture than most san serifs, which is all to the good. But to me it also looks excentric to a point that is a bit distracting.

It may be that Hrants view is right that the way to go is just all the way with the concept, and just make it as good looking as possible with its varied shape, or maybe even more varied shapes.

Emigre has done a lot of to me excentric stuff that has found a place in the type world, so maybe that is a model.

Actually I think this (or at least what I’m talking about) is a world apart from the Emigre school, because the “eccentricity” is not [purely] for aesthetic effect — it’s not a form of artistic expression. In fact more than eccentricity you could call it “realism”: referring to the reality that laymen don’t care about formal aesthetics the way [most] type designers do — they’re essentially concerned with accessing the content instead. Crazy laymen.

hhp

Wow! I quite like the direction this is going, but a few things bother me.

1) The difference in dots for i and j, while I appreciate it, doesn’t work for me.

2) The roman feels slightly as if it’s leaning left, especially at smaller sizes.

3) And speaking of left, the italic K needs to bulk up on its left side.

4) The italic p looks too `pinched’ to me; maybe bring the join down just a hair.

Overall, though, I could see using this for a couple of projects I have. Keep up the good work!

Chris, FYI you might want to look at Beret by Eduardo Omine, one of our typophiles here. He recently did a sans with a ‘bent’ ascender, now published by Linotype.

they are the same, just a copy and paste

I think the dots must have been on my eyes! I swear they looked different the first time I checked out the PDF, but now that I go back, they do indeed look the same. Hmmm.

The K and p look much better. The whole thing works well at text sizes, which pleases me greatly.

FWIW, I looked at this on my iBook, and the dot issue I saw before seems to be from the screen on it (both Preview and the Shubert plug-in). So, I’m not crazy (or at least this isn’t confirmation).

I don’t think it would be too calligraphic, given the rest of the traits of the font. Just keep the diamonds the same size ;-) (and don’t make them too pointy).

Diamonds are but lumps of coal.

Have you had a chance to look at the slant issue I brought up earlier? I’ve recently been playing with Syntax, and its ever-so-slight forward slant is very pleasing.

No, it definitely isn’t an iBook thing. I even printed out the PDF to make sure. My wife’s comment was “It looks like it’s going to fall over.” Give it a 1 degree forward slant and see if it doesn’t feel more dynamic.

By the way, some of the discussion over in the serif forum is I think relevant, even if serifs aren’t the cause of what I see here.

http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/29/50587.html?1097103444

I like it!

I think the slant gives it vibrancy and removes the feeling I had before that it was tipping backwards.