baseline help needed

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jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
baseline help needed
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Looking to get some critique on a new logo for a client, World of Beer. I am not formally trained in typography and graphic design, so I am unsure as to where to align the letters in "World of Beer". A couple questions...

1. Should the "W" and the "B" sit slightly below the baseline because they are larger than the other letters?
2. Should the "o" in "World" also sit slightly below (but still a bit higher than the "W" and the "B") because it has a rounded lower extent?
3. I currently have the horizontal line below the "World of Beer" centered on the bottom left point of the "W" in "World" and the bottom right point of the "R" in "Beer". Is this correct? Should the right side of the line be aligned with the upper-right rounded part of the "R" in "Beer"? Should the left side of the line be aligned slightly to the left of where it is now?
4. The clear space on the left and right sides around the logo is currently calculated from the edges of the horizontal line. I'm unsure if this is correct, as it currently looks a bit off. This might be corrected by adjustments made from answers to previous question.

Any other comments and critiques are welcome. Thanks in advance for the advice.

Cheers,
J.W.

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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here's a closeup...

nasos kouroupis's picture
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Joined: 6 Jul 2007 - 1:05pm
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http://ilovetypography.com/2009/01/14/inconspicuous-vertical-metrics/
Read this article, lot of your questions will be answered

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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Very nice article. Thank you. That pretty much answered my questions about the baseline. Does the fact that the "W" in "World" and "B" in "Beer" are much bigger than the other letters have any effect on where they should lineup in relation to the baseline? Should they be slightly below or directly on the baseline?

I'm also still unsure about the horizontal alignment issue (#'s 3&4).

Thanks again for the article.

nasos kouroupis's picture
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Joined: 6 Jul 2007 - 1:05pm
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No, but will be better maintain the large letters
having the same stroke weight, so to make them appearing
as caps and small caps, not just scale them to bigger size.

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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good point. i will fix that. any advice on how to find the center point of "World of Beer"?

Ratbaggy's picture
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Joined: 30 May 2006 - 10:17pm
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divide by 2?!

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Paul Ducco
Graphic Designer
Short Film Festival

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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Gee thanks. Now do i divide the the distance between the TOP left point of the "W" to the rounded top part of the "R"? Or is it from the BOTTOM left point of the "W" to the bottom right point of the "R"?

If you look at my closeup, I've set it to the BOTTOM left point of the "W". Is this correct, or does it need to be shifted to the left a bit?

Ratbaggy's picture
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Joined: 30 May 2006 - 10:17pm
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you're looking for visual balance.

why not try both and see the differences for yourself?

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Paul Ducco
Graphic Designer
Short Film Festival

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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i definitely have. just wasn't sure if there was a technically "proper" way to align it. i've attached three logo variations. if anyone would like to leave feedback on which looks best i would appreciate it.

0.jpg = centered on the bottom edge of "World of Beer"
1.jpg = centered on overall outside width of "World of Beer"
2.jpg = aligned by eye

0.jpg...

1.jpg...

2.jpg...

Ratbaggy's picture
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which do you think looks best?

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Paul Ducco
Graphic Designer - Melbourne

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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0.jpg was the original, but now i think 2.jpg might look better.

Ratbaggy's picture
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Joined: 30 May 2006 - 10:17pm
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I agree with 2.jpg

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Paul Ducco
Graphic Designer - Melbourne

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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cool. thanks for the feedback. just trying to perfect it, as its going to be on three more building fronts just this year, and 5 more in 2010 (based on what the franchise company has signed right now). i know there are quite a few respected designers on this forum, so any critiques are welcome. thanks again for the help, j.w.

Sebastian von Bischopink's picture
Joined: 12 May 2005 - 3:55am
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Is there a particular reason why the "of" is floating in mid air?

Alex Pankratov's picture
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Joined: 24 Nov 2008 - 11:50pm
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.. and why is it 'Of' instead of 'of' or 'OF' ?

jw2626's picture
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the client already had a logo with the exact same "World of Beer" but a different globe (some pretty cheesy stock art looking globe), and they wanted to stay with the same "World of Beer" part so they only had to replace the globe on the big sign on their building, instead of replacing the entire thing. So, the "World of Beer" part was not my design, just the globe. But it's not too late to change little aspects of it. I too have always thought that the "of" was just floating in mid-air. At this point, I don't think i'll be able to make a change as drastic as dropping it to the baseline, but i could make the "o" the same size as the "f" and align the top of them with the median line (see changes below).

Another person left a comment about the stroke weight needing to be uniform. I'm working on that right now. It's taking a little while b/c i dont actually have this particular font. I actually had to trace the old logo b/c all the client had was a TIFF file.

jw2626's picture
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uniformed the spacing between “World" and “of” and between "of" and “Beer”...

jw2626's picture
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does anyone else think that the gaps between “World" and “of” and between "of" and “Beer” look too wide now?

jw2626's picture
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went ahead and made "of" the same size as the rest of the small-caps. does this look better?

Alexander Kominek's picture
Joined: 10 Dec 2004 - 6:27pm
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Much better.

Are you sure you want to use "The Scourge"?

- Lex

jw2626's picture
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009 - 10:15am
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haha. "The Scourge". that's funny. no, i'm definitely not set on Arial. suggestions welcome!

Raymond Kingston's picture
Joined: 4 Sep 2006 - 12:28am
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Worlds better. I'd love to see "World of Beer" with just a *little* more breathing room between the letters. If all they're concerned about is their sign, with this logo get more exposure elsewhere? If the sign on the storefront is the only thing they don't want to change, there's little to no reason to not improve upon the original for all other applications while you have the opportunity.

Agreed about Arial. One of the babillion American gothics might work really well here.

Funny, while I write this I can see the logo peripherally while I look in the box I'm typing. The indirect image out of the corner of my eye interprets it as the Jurassic Park logo. Try it for yourself.

Raymond Kingston's picture
Joined: 4 Sep 2006 - 12:28am
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Sorry, I was too inspired:

jw2626's picture
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breathing room between the letters. i hear ya. let me change that real quick. do i ignore the serifs when spacing the letters?

I agree with you about improving on the logo. The storefront is certainly not the only place where this logo will show up. As far as storefronts go, they currently have one store, but 10 more locations are signed and scheduled to open in the next two years (with more to come i'm sure). In my opinion, now is the time to perfect this logo. Better to make the change now than two years from now.

checking out the babillion American gothics now.

man, i haven't seen the Jurassic Park logo in years. I just checked it out, and it does look similar, especially when out of the corner of the eye. haha.

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Gave some breathing room. how does this look? Also, i changed the typeface of the subtext to "Constantia." I couldnt find anyhing on "babillion American gothics" through google. Does the subtext look better with a sans-serif typeface or serif? Am i correct in thinking that I'm supposed to use a typeface that is very different from the typeface used for "World of Beer" (which i believe is copperplate gothic)?

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Paul Ducco
Graphic Designer - Melbourne

Raymond Kingston's picture
Joined: 4 Sep 2006 - 12:28am
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Sorry to confuse you, man.

Babillion: slang; aka Kajillion; many, several.
American gothic: a typeface genre inspired by American wood type from late 1800s/early 1900s. Examples: Trade Gothic, Franklin Gothic, News Gothic, etc...

I should have said: "One of the many varieties of American gothic typefaces, such as Franklin Gothic, might work really well here."

This is not a great cut of Copperplate, either (if not an ingenuine knockoff; faux bold, perhaps?). I'm just saying that your globe and its placement is pretty awesome, and while you're updating this parts of this old-school logo, perhaps you should go all out and update all of the type. ; )

Good luck!