> I'd like to go straight into the earth in my birthday
> suit. But it's probably illegal

hrant, I've heard of some burial societies that will bury folks just wrapped in a sheet. But I don't think that's widely available due to burial rules.

Some burial rules are actually cemetery regulations, not laws. For example, many cemeteries require that caskets be enclosed in a burial vault (typically a concrete box with a lid) in order to prevent the grave from sinking when the casket decomposes.

Cemeteries don't want sunken graves because its unsightly and families complain. It can also cause headstones to tip.

@quadibloc: “…in general, one does not have tombstone typography…” and “Tombstone Monumental Lettering.”

Really? *sigh* OK then, what’s your definition of “typography?”

Figure 1: Bring it on!

Having taken another look at this thread, I will say that typography involves type.

I'm easy - I'll accept a typewriter (after all, it could be a Selectric Composer) or Letraset.

But calligraphy is not typography. And so the typical or at least traditional case of headstone preparation, where letters are carved by hand isn't typography either. And, even if you were referring to the cases which are typography, I was referring to that other case.

Of course not!

No, it isn't. But it's certainly strongly related to typography. Calligraphy, or other lettering arts where care and attention is applied to the form of letters, are the fundamental sources on which type design draws. (Yes, I recognized the Trajan column there.)

Of course, in calligraphy - or inscription engraving - one doesn't just apply care and attention to forming the letters, one also places them on the surface. So calligraphy embodies both the same basic creative processes as type design and typography.

Since calligraphy and similar arts resemble type design and typography both, and not just typography alone, the distinction between them and typography is one important to retain.

@hrant:
That is true of calligraphy as usually practiced, since most of the time established writing styles are followed. But in principle, since the calligrapher forms his or her own letters, calligraphy can include a portion of what type design involves.

And, indeed, many type designers were also calligraphers, and used this skill in the beginning stages of designing typefaces. Of course, they then had to involve themselves in certain explicit processes alien to calligraphy, such as allocating the space between pairs of letters to the individual letters on each side... I am willing to split any hairs that are needful to split, but before the need is discovered, I will not delve too deeply.

TYO363: Redundant reply.

I've told my children that I'd like this as my headstone.

http://www.poligrafa.net/artist.php?id=169&acc=3

No need to be yoursel... I mean... rude, Michael.

There's definitely overlap between any two activities concerning the visual representation of language. But the things that make type design worth having invented are not things present in calligraphy (or even lettering). Otherwise why invent it? Unless you -like Noordzij- believe that printing was a "fall from grace"... In fact now that calligraphers are largely useless for the rendering of highly-readable text* I believe calligraphy is most valuable when it doesn't worry about legibility, even color, etc.

* Something that's been true for centuries, so it's not like it happened after anybody currently alive made their career choice.

hhp

I guess I wouldn't want to find out what counts for rude in your village of broken men.

hhp

Well explained.

So we've had a very short period of history, a little over a hundred years, in which our text culture has been predominantly typographic

OK, I can grant you that - although the invention of printing did nonetheless make scribes much less important. But anyway that's still before anybody currently alive had to make a career choice. Ergo: no excuses about confusing the contemporary [ir]relevance of calligraphy.

As for the modern popularity of script fonts: part of it is that we now have the technology to do it justice (the magic that Excoffon pulled off with Mistral is now ho-hum); and people value what they no longer have, even if it's pretend.

hhp

Perhaps we could re-direct our conversation about the relationships (or lack thereof?) between calligraphy and type design to another thread, so we can keep this one focused:

How are calligraphy and type design related?

It has been mentioned that one of the reasons people may think Typophile is slipping is that all to often threads enter a downward spiral of infighting between the same long-standing members that goes wildly off topic, eventually killing it.

Hrant: ...although the invention of printing did nonetheless make scribes much less important.

Actually, I think a very strong case can be made that the opposite is true. Print publishing contributed the growth and spread of the renaissance, of new kinds of texts, and the age of European exploration, all of which resulted in a huge increase in written materials. By the 18th Century, the call for professional clerks was such that entire orphanages in London were dedicated to training their charges in the twin skills of writing and accountancy.

It is only in the specific field of book publishing that scribes ceased to play as important a role as they had prior to Gutenberg's invention; in every other field their role increased in importance.

I presume you'll be presenting at the Baskerville event in April? If so, I hope they will be providing video proceedings (since I can't make it).

hhp

What's the Baskerville event in April?

I too am eager to hear more about your research, John. Thanks for posting the pictures. The Dawkins looks a bit like proto-ITC design!

One thing I notice about most of these: the outstroke (or whatever you'd call that "tail" at the lower right) of /a/ is substantial in size and is given generous spacing. It's far closer to to the analogous part of a /t/ than that of a /d/.

@JonhHudson—

Actually, I think a very strong case can be made that the opposite is true.

And you would be, of course, gravely mistaken. What movable type actually did was to vastly expand the base of literacy, since manuscripts of all kinds could be mass-produced. It took the invention of the typewriter, several hundred years later, to transmogrify the process of personal correspondence, as well. Duh.

Um, yeah, Nick: you say I would be gravely mistaken, and then you paraphrase exactly the point that I made.

Hey, Hrant! Cut the guy some slack! You set the bar awfully high. At best, John may be said to be mildly Hrant-like, but it a far more confusing and—oh, I don't know—whimsical way…

@John Hudson: “Sorry, Chris, once a conversational tangent has started, I think it is better to continue it where it is unless you can persuade each participant to re-post their comments, in sequence, in the other thread.”

Totally true, I did create another thread (which you have already participated in), and I’ll still make the same point. Tangential conversations that tank a thread are a deterrent to new users. They see it as meandering in-fighting and perceive the site as having less value because of it.

I trust you have noticed its always the same 6 guys, and that ~80% of the site has turned to "whats this font?" by users with accounts that are <24h old.

Obviously its self-defeating to try to control others behaviour in a public forum, but its just something people might want to be mindful of.

They see it as meandering in-fighting and perceive the site as having less value because of it.

Sad, but true. Plus, is there really a point in trying to control's Nick Shinn's “behaviour”? He’s just going to flip you the bird when he runs out of trite shit to say…not unlike Ryan, but with British spelling, don’t you know.

This is the tombstone of Jack Dawson, the guy Leonardo DiCaprio played in Titanic. It’s in a graveyard in Halifax (where I am from). As you can see, the ground in front of it is worn bare. Wanna know why? Japanese tourists actually think DiCaprio is buried there.

And his inscription.

If I can still change my mind, I want the "duh" glyph, and then below it, the "ed" glyph.