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Posted by Hildebrant in

27 Jan 2003 — 1:12pm

27 Jan 2003 — 1:12pm

Ok.. granted I hav not taken a huge amount of time trying to comprehend this -- Golden Section -- rule. But being a man with a seemingly un-annalitical brain, I just cant exactly comprehend this. Could somone spell this out in lamens terms? All I have ever seen written on it is very technical mathmatical expressions. Does anyone have any good examples of layouts that comply to the guidlines of the Golden Section?? Would love to hear/learn more about this.

hildebrant.

27 Jan 2003 — 1:30pm

I'm sure somebody can point you to a nice web resource, but I would recommend a book: "Geometry in Design" by Kimberly Elam. It's a "light" work, but contains a nice treatment of various geometric "ideals" in design, and Nature. Of course it has a section on the Golden Section.

What bugs me about the Golden Section is this: since it deals with proportions of

length, when you use it for surfaces (like in type design), do yousquare-rootit? I've never seen a convincing discussion of that.BTW, I also have an article from an old issue of PEI (back when they encouraged thinking, instead of being a source for Qwik Trix with Fotopix type ••••) that discussed the Golden Section with great insight. But please don't ask me to find it! :-/

hhp

27 Jan 2003 — 1:34pm

hmmmm. The golden section is quite a big subject.

It's not that difficult. (I wrote a paper about it ). Maybe first a link to start: the pages of mr Knott, which have a big deal to say about the golden section, and helped me alot. Non-designed, but filled with information & examples on the subject. (I always liked the part about Fibonnacci and his rabbits )

In fact, it is just a proportion of 1 to 1,618.... Some people believe this is the "divine proportion" because it appears in nature so often (this has rather economical reasons, see Professor Knott's pages). I think it is rather difficult to apply to design, because of it's irrational nature. Le Corbusier used it to design his buildings (he made a system out of it, called 'le Modulor'); Wiedemann used it in his Corporate ACE-typefaces (and the Mercedes-star). Many bookcovers have this proportion also. There is alot written about applying this to bookdesign (see Bringhurts "Elements of Typography" for instance), and I think Tschichold studied it and distilled a method to apply it to the margins of a page...

hope this gets you going...

27 Jan 2003 — 1:44pm

Hrant, you're to quick for me! Yes 'Geometry in Design' is a indeed good book for showing some examples of applying the GS. I forgot about it ...

There are many proportion-systems, Palladio used the proportions that are based on the musical harmonies. There is a magnificent book on that (only architecture tough) by

Rudolf Wittkower:Architectural Principles in the Age of Humanism(1949).I think one should just find a system (or make up his own) that suits him (and the job) and apply that to his design, so you have a certain consistency in your design.

28 Jan 2003 — 9:33am

Hrant:

What bugs me about the Golden Section is this: since itlengthdeals with proportions of

, when you use it forsquare-rootsurfaces (like in type design), do you

it?No! If you have a rectangle and sections the longer side

according to the golden ratio the areas you get will still

be, of course, in the (A+B/A = A/B) relationship.

This is a misleading question. The "visual assessment" of

the relationships of surfaces was not very much the point.

The two more important applications of the golden ratio

were the golden section (=cut) which deals with the

positioning of an element inside a certain width, and the

golden rectangle, which is a shape. Though the ratio is the

same, these are quite unrelated perceptual experiences.

Naturally, if the rectangle you sectioned above was a

golden rectangle to begin with, you get a square and a

new golden rectangle, so you begin to tie the loose ends.

Now, the mathematical validity of the golden ratio is

universal, it turns up in many natural phenomena (*),

etc., but the question is: does it have any

aestheticvalidity outside the area of Greek cultural influence

(the so-called "West")? For instance does it appear in

Islamic (**) architecture and decoration somehow? (As

you know, the Muslims were the heirs and "keepers" of

Greek culture through the middle ages.) In China? In

Japan?

For those interested in the golden ratio, I recommend a nice

little book called

The Divine Proportion, by H.E. Huntley.It's edited by Dover, and not hard to find, I think.

(*) http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/science/story/0,12450,875198,00.html

(**) The golden ratio is directly related to the pentagon,

and the Muslims have a much greater interest in the octagon,

AFAIK.

28 Jan 2003 — 9:47am

Interesting.

> does it have any aesthetic validity outside the area of Greek cultural influence

It must, for a very simple reason: we're animals too. Culture is a side-effect.

hhp

29 Jan 2003 — 4:52am

"Is the golden section useful in type design?

Not really..."

Gunnlaugur SE Briem DIXIT.

Please, check:

http://briem.ismennt.is/2/2.3.3a/2.3.3.03.golden.htm

29 Jan 2003 — 8:01am

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881791164/qid=1043855642/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2435857-0064834?v=glance&s=books

This book puts in in great perspective. It really helped me get a grasp on it. Highly recomended.

Also this might help. http://world.std.com/~wij/glad/tschichold.html

But no promisees on this one. Get the book if you can.

29 Jan 2003 — 12:00pm

cheers.

Thanks for all the links. I'm currently reading The elements of Typographic Style... almost to this section, hopefull that will help me to get a greater grasp on the usefullness of the golden section.

hildebrant.

30 Jan 2003 — 9:34pm

Somebody already mentioned _The Divine proportion_ by Huntley

Another useful book: _The Geometry of Art and Life_ by Ghyka (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-7707676-6859048)

31 Jan 2003 — 8:44am

The Geometry of Art looks like a pretty good read.

The book I mention below is helpful visualizing a lot of the principles in geometry. Examples include the Barcelona Chair, the new VW Bug and Der Berufsphotographer poster by Tschichold among others.

Elam, Kimberly. Geometry of Design. Princeton Architectural Press. 2001.

27 Jan 2003 — 1:39pm

You can see a flash animation demonstrating how to construct a rectangle conforming to a Golden Section at Textism <a href="http://www.textism.com/bucket/fibsquare.html"> here. </a>

The ratio of a golden section can be represented by a line bisected in such a way that the ratio of the smaller "piece" to the larger piece is equal to the ratio of the larger piece to the whole.

Sort of like this:

----------|------

(but don't count those hypens, it can't be shown with whole units - it's roughly 1:1.6, but really it's an irrational.

29 Jan 2003 — 12:28pm

Thought this would be of interest to those of you following this thread... Helaman Ferguson is a renowned sculptor and friend of the family.

http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathtrek_10_21_02.html