Archive through January 25, 2003

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Anonymous's picture
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Joined: 6 Mar 2002 - 1:06pm
Archive through January 25, 2003
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Your thoughts? Close enough for legal action?

ff logo

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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I think so, yeah.

hhp

Kent Lew's picture
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Joined: 21 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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Just to clarify: a logo is protected by a slightly different branch of intellectual property law — Trademark, not Copyright. Unlike copyright, which accrues to the creator upon the act of creation (under all copyright laws that I know of anyway), trademark protection is usually only offered after registration and a period of review. Also, the guidelines for determining infringement are specific to trademark law.

If “Satan” has any concerns, he/she should contact a trademark attorney for a professional opinion.

Svastika is a Sanskrit word derived from svasti (“well-being, fortune, luck, success, prosperity”). Svastika can refer in general to any auspicious mark or object, but it is most commonly used to indicate the familiar swastika symbol. Some claim that the direction of the arms has significance, but I suspect this is a post-WWII revisionism designed to distance the original symbol from the Nazi appropriation/corruption of it. Steven Heller wrote an entire book about this.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> isn’t the swastica a sign of good luck?

And other nice things too, in many cultures, even independently (like with the AmerInd). But try using it in public in Germany, and your luck will most certainly take a serious nose-dive…

BTW, I found Heller’s book a monumental waste of a tantalizing topic.

hhp

Graham Hicks's picture
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Joined: 2 Sep 2002 - 7:26pm
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It’s seems like the rotated double F is a pretty common device. Here are a few I found on google:

Yves Peters's picture
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Joined: 7 Nov 2002 - 11:00am
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Paul, talking about unintentional swastika’s: we once received a flaming letter by a FontShop customer who bought FUSE 1 and noticed the “x” in Ian Swift’s Maze 91. This guy was so outraged he virtually accused us of being Nazis! I fear this negative conotation is so engrained in our collective memory that it won’t ever go away. Then again, he was the only customer in the entire FS network we ever heard of who was irked by the character. Methinks it’s just a question of interpretation, and I suspect some people to intentionally go looking for these kind of things.

Graham, I’m very impressed.

Satan, I really don’t know. Personnally, comparing your design to the other examples shown here I think your interlocking Fs are a pure swipe, and I wouldn’t recommend using it from an ethical point of view. Uvcurz, you’re a free man. No offense, I don’t wanna sound too harsh. Wouldn’t want to incur the wrath of Satan… :-)

Victor Yb Delgado Revueltas's picture
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 - 9:53am
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The whole problem here is branding. Im sure they stole the name “Friction Factory” from obscure 80s pop band “Fiction Factory” famous for their excel “Feels Like Heaven” single.

Why didnt they choose CC (Culture Club) or TT (Tak Talk) i wonder?
I mean, on with the ripp-off trip…

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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Graham, killer collection there!

hhp

Matha Stand�n's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 5:13am
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Paul, I would like to think I would have gone ahead with that logo, but, unfortunately, I had to take the cover off Heller’s book to get away with reading it in public on the metro.
BTW What country was the client based in?

Matha

Graham Hicks's picture
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Joined: 2 Sep 2002 - 7:26pm
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“Graham, I’m very impressed.”
“Graham, killer collection there!”

Well thankyouverymuch.
The power of Google Images is mighty.
You must treat her with awe and respect.
It could be dangerous if it gets into the wrong hands.

Paul Schliesser's picture
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Joined: 2 Oct 2001 - 11:42pm
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HI Matha,

The client is in the U.S. (as I am).

Probably, nobody would ever have noticed the swastica hidden in the center, but once I first noticed it, I always saw it each time I looked at the logo, so it spoiled the idea for me. Also, I didn’t want it to possibly cause a problem for my client in the future.

- Paul

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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What if you made the middle “pixel” white?

hhp

Joe Pemberton's picture
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Joined: 8 Apr 2002 - 3:36pm
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The email provided at www.frictionfactory.com
is for satan@frictionfactory.com.

Have you ever written a cease and decist to the devil?

Seriously though, before you write a flame to satan,
it’s probably best to let the folks at FontFont initiate any
dialogue or action, if that’s what they choose to do.

Claudio Piccinini's picture
Joined: 11 Jan 2003 - 9:32am
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I am very interested by the swastika issue.
I can confirm that the clockwise or counterclockwise direction is an after-WW2 assumption, since the symbol has always been used with positive meaning in both directions before the Nazi appropriation.

Actually I had a short discussion with Heller when he wrote an essay on Outwest for my “Letters” book (coming out before the end of.. etc. etc.) and I mostly disagree with his conclusions. I have not read his book, but I have read an article on Baseline and what I actually consider wrong is the preconception against blackletter (raised by Heller in another article). This is all part of a project I intend to develop on the redemption of the blackletter (and maybe the swastika) considering that, as Miles Newlyn pointed out talking about his Ferox typeface, perceptions towards graphic symbols always arise in context.

When I will do it I will ask for the opinion of Typophile members. This tread has proved really interesting.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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More than “wrong”, Heller is following the official party line.

hhp

Claudio Piccinini's picture
Joined: 11 Jan 2003 - 9:32am
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Well, most people are, but Heller seems to have a strong personal attitude towards the issue. In part I can understand but I just hate the idea of “cursed” graphic symbols or alphabets. And I’m glad Mattel or someone for them used Jon Barnbrook’s Manson for Barbie’s computer animation feature “Princess Raperonzolo”, also on DVD. First Snow White, now this. And I’ve found also the most banal use of Manson ever, paired with Trajan: for an Italian Shopping center. So “sad” I had to send it to Jon.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> I just hate the idea of “cursed” graphic symbols or alphabets.

Me too, but my point is that to Heller (and many others), that serves an extremely useful purpose.

hhp

Matha Stand�n's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 5:13am
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What irritates me about Heller’s book is his attack on the accidental use of swastikas — which would have been Paul’s case if he hadn’t noticed it. And this is in a book subtitled Symbol Beyond Redemtion?. He should be honest and leave out the question mark. The swastika might eventually redeem itself if it wasn’t for people like Heller attacking football teams and skateboard companies for their choice of logo.

I recently read Heinrich B

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> He should be honest and leave out the question mark.

That’s like asking news program previews not to say: “Wondering how many Middle-Eastern-looking men live in your neighborhood? Tune in at 6PM, the answer may surprise you!” This is not a joke — that sort of trickery is standand practice here. Along with weather ladies with names like “Windy Vavoom”.

If the Swastika redeemed itself, it would be extremely less useful to certain people, and only slightly more useful to most people.

hhp

Matha Stand�n's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 5:13am
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“Windy Vavoom”, eh?. Are you sure you’re not thinking of that dream with the buxom Valkyrie?
;-)

M.

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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No, I’m sure the Valkyrie never told me her name.
I would’ve remembered.

Just so nobody thinks I’m too much of a perv:
http://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=typo-l&P=R242&I=-3

hhp

Matha Stand�n's picture
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003 - 5:13am
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Sorry, Hrant. Don’t want to be giving you a bad reputation or anything. I’m just jealous. I cut people up into little pieces in my dreams. No valkyries anywhere. :_(

I’m off to bed to try again, though, so I’ll say goodnight.

M.

Paul Davidson's picture
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002 - 6:44pm
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No modern discussion of the swastika is complete without mention of Swastika, Ontario — the defiant Canadian town that stands by its name and emblem.

http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/fots.html

I’ve read about the town before; this was just the quickest link I could find. The burg won a battle in the 50’s to resist a government-mandated namechange to “Winston”. They proudly display the swastika on local merchandise (matchbooks, etc.) and have a campaign going to enlighten people on the symbol’s true meanings.

Paul

Paul Davidson's picture
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002 - 6:44pm
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The idea may or may not have been borrowed in this case, but I doubt that fitting two F’s together like that hasn’t been though up by many logo designers before. I frequently see almost identical logos thought up around the same time by different designers for different companies.

Example: that “Rohr” logo in the Critique forum is almost the same as the logo for the “Creativity 32” book that’s coming out.

Paul

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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In fact, I just realized, Fendi’s logo is like that. Maybe it depends if you’re a competitor in the same market. So I guess FontFont can never market fancy handbags.

hhp

Jared Benson's picture
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Joined: 25 Apr 2005 - 6:41pm
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Separated at birth?

fontlab
fontfont

Any other siblings we should know about?

Anonymous's picture
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Joined: 6 Mar 2002 - 1:06pm
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Actually, I am Satan…. well I am the the creator of that logo (which also uses FF’s DIN ) and before I go on to finish out the site, I wanted to know if I was in danger of being sued anytime soon.

Does that type of thing happen often? The dimensions are pretty similiar to FontFont’s, but that is out of necessity.

Tanya Sprowl's picture
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Joined: 18 Aug 2002 - 11:00am
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The rules of copyright depend on where the copyright is claimed, registered, and applicable.

Our gouvernment (Canada) has a website where you can search images and their “description” of said logo. If their description and image matches, best not tred in those waters. Some descriptions are as vague as “M” (Helvetica) in a black box symbolizing unity. registered 1966, folded, re-registered ect. ect.

Check with you copyright office, hire a lawyer or order the search. its the second step in the identity design process in our hood.

Paul Schliesser's picture
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Joined: 2 Oct 2001 - 11:42pm
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Here’s an interlocking ‘F’ logo idea I did about a year ago for a client. I was pretty happy with it, until I noticed that it formed a swastica in the center. I tried a couple of other variations, but couldn’t get rid of the swastica without leaving a gap in the middle, so I dropped it.

fidelis loog

David Earls's picture
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Joined: 11 Apr 2002 - 11:00am
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Also see the link below, but I dont think anyone would want to sue these guys:

http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/

I doubt FontFont was the first to think of interlocking characters anyhow.

Incidentally, isn’t the swastica a sign of good luck?

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