I'm tired of Titillium that isn't legible in small font sizes! I need a sans-serif font which be totally legible in small sizes!

Hello people!

I'm tired of Titillium and TitilliumText22L! It's not legible in small sizes or in 11, 13, 14px in the sites or blogs! Titillium isn't like Arial, Helvetica and Verdana. Titillium is totally legible only in Word 2007 with optimized ClearType, Paint, Photoshop, Illustrator, Inkscape and Gimp.

I need a free and ORIGINAL font which...
— sans-serif
— totally legible in small sizes (10 to 14px)
— contemporary
— corporate
— fashionable
— modern
— squarish
— techno
— text.

Thanx u all!

Kevin

Renko's picture

You sure will get more results without the »free« …

fontsquirrel's picture

Kevin-

Looks like it is up to you to create it. Seriously, that is a laughable rant/request.... especially here.

kevintheophile's picture

@Ethan, why did you say it was a laughable rant? Were laughing at me? Or at the font? Are they the type designers?

aluminum's picture

"free and ORIGINAL"

Can you go one or the other? Having both requirements is going to severely limit your options.

kevintheophile's picture

@aluminium, "original" means not pirate. I don't want pirate fonts. I need SAFE fonts.

fontsquirrel's picture

It is laughable to demand that someone create a high quality font that meets nine criteria you selected for FREE. Why complain about it? Pony up the money for a font that meets your needs.

This makes me grumpy because your expectations are misplaced.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

Kevin, perhaps this will teach you why fonts cost money.

Nick Shinn's picture

I am working on the font right now.
Having just become independently wealthy, I can now devote my time to "giving back", so the font will be free.
Rather like Helvetica, it will be the kind of font that even the worst designer can put into a hastily conceived layout in any size in any medium, pixel or print, and immediately all the conflicting conotations of any design brief will be resolved in a client-pleasing, product-shifting, message-selling, award-winning piece of creative genius. Corporate, yet fashionable, squarish yet legible, strong yet subtle, techno yet organic, familiar yet not clichéd, &c. &c.
The font will be named Magic.

dezcom's picture

Nick,
I am working on a similar font, it is called "The Emperors New Clothes"

John Hudson's picture

Sorry, Nick and Chris, I've already designed this font, but thanks to very complex OpenType Layout lookups it can only be used to describe the indescribable, relate the unrelatable, explicate the inexplicable, and generally to typeset only impossible texts. Obviously it’s is no less legible at small sizes than at large. The font is called Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

kevintheophile's picture

@Ethan, you're really laughing at me and criticizing me. I didn't demand that anyone create one, but I asked that someone found one totally legible font with these catheorgies or not.

As you laughed, kidded or foolished me and criticized me, I desist of asking somenone to fin one free legible font. I decide to continue using Titillium. Soonly I'll buy the fonts so I don't have time of buying the fonts.

As I'm impressed with your attituds, I have to get out of here, you'll be free of me.

fontsquirrel's picture

Boy, I feel like a dull sledgehammer compared to the the fine poetic precision exhibited here. I humbly submit to "yous-allses" grand wit. +1

I'd like to hear how Berlow would respond.

dezcom's picture

I wonder why he left angry? He got exactly what he paid for.

nina's picture

"I didn't demand that anyone create one, but I asked that someone found one"

Well – fonts don't grow on trees. For there to be one, someone has to make one.
And you've come to the place where people who make them hang out.

russellm's picture

I wonder why he left angry? He got exactly what he paid for.

Well, you guys foolished him, Chris.

dezcom's picture

But, John, no man is an island so what is lost is never bained

Froy's picture

@ Nick Shinn

As soon as I read the first line of your comment "I am working on the font right now."
I burst into endless laughter on the floor. haha lol. Too funny...

William Berkson's picture

John, that's the perfect font for publishing Wittgenstein, whom you quote. Then nobody will make the mistake of trying to understand him :)

Florian Hardwig's picture

I will seize the opportunity and link to: M.A. Numminen sings Wittgenstein

Tomi from Suomi's picture

@Florian: Oh dear Wittgenstein! I did not see that coming. M. A. Numminen is a demi-god in Finlad (no matter what Wittgenstein says). And apparently also in Sweden and Germany. He helped me through my childhood with his Mr Who (Herra Huu).

dezcom's picture

Great one, Nick!

dezcom's picture

I change my mind, instead of naming my font "The Emperor's New Clothes", I am naming it:

"Got zol dir gebn a rak mit a rekele -- vestu hobn a ganstn kostium"

William Berkson's picture

I don't know Yiddish, but my friend google does. Even knows Yiddish puns. Of course it would be a pun with Chris—a double richochet this time :)

paul d hunt's picture

The font will be named Magic.

Did Apple commission this from you?

dezcom's picture

That was just for you, Bill!

The translation is:

"May god give you a large cancer as well as a small cancer--so then, you will have a nice outfit!"
"rak" means both cancer and jacket, hence the pun Bill mentioned.

And no, I don't speak Yiddish, I just got a book for Christmas from my wife, who is tired of me butchering it, called "The Book of Yiddish Insults and Curses"

rubenDmarkes's picture

Woo, let's all get together and have a bashing party! Let's get all smart on him! We'll show him! We'll use our cleverness in sarcastic speeches that he might not even understand! Let's unite around our hatred for those who do not get it! Yes! That always works nicely!

:(
These threads always make me want less to be on Typophile… I really, honestly, hold you all up to a higher standard than this.

Kevintheophile, this might not have been made clear in a nice way, but maybe you got it already: what you're asking for isn't really fair. And maybe it even exists (and if it does, someone's bound to eventually come here and give you what you asked for), but it probably doesn't.

Also, there are some other things you might be overlooking:

What do you want this typeface for? To use it on websites, you'll have to either have it on Flash or an image of some kind or use some kind of @font-face thing (I'm not too familiar with those), because nobody will have this font on their systems and it won't show up on regular html text. Why not just use Verdana, Georgia, Tahoma, Arial, Trebuchet? (I guess, from reading your other threads, you've been over this.)

Typefaces are hard to produce and design, you need expertise, time, the right tools; all good type-designers (those who will, logically, produce the best fonts) are fully aware of this and feel/know they deserve compensation for their hard work. I'd love to produce quality typefaces and give them out, but the day I finally get the expertise and the tools and come up with the first one, it's possible that I'll think twice about that. After all, the tools cost money, the expertise might, too, and my time should probably have some value.

You should also know it's common for people to come here asking for free fonts (whatever for), and the very first ones might not have had this treatment, but by now this is the regular treatment; it's just become such a common thing that people here don't want to take the time to explain all of this and whatever else, because, for them, it's a repeating event. We easily forget that other people might not be aware of all this, regardless of how long they've been a member on this site.

Also, there's a lot of technical things you don't seem to be up-to-speed about, judging from your posts, and this forum is very specific; so much so that we usually prefer to discuss the technicalities over explaining little, now-to-us-seemingly-obvious things like how to increase letters in Fontlab or any other software. You might need to study more, read more, and search for answers before you ask. You know, browse the web, search help-files, search Typophile on Google (try the following on Google: site:typophile.com free fonts), etc.; many of the things we want to know are explained somewhere. Also, you might need to be more specific with what you're asking for and why so that people can really help you.

Isn't there a page where the gist of this is explained? Can't we just direct people like Kevin to that instead of resorting to this…? If not, why not just not answering them…? Sure, ignoring people is wrong too, but blatantly alienating is worse…

And cancer? Really? Exaggerate much…? You all might not care, but I want you to know I like you all and respect you and expect more than this.

paul d hunt's picture

This hasn't been updated in a while, but you might start at Good Libre Fonts

raph's picture

If anyone does create this font we're happy to host it on the Google Font API.

dezcom's picture

Ruben,
You will be relieved to know that I don't even remotely have the power to inflict illness on anyone so Kevin is safe from Cancer by my doing. However, I am not apologizing to someone who comes in demanding with exclamation points and all caps:

"Hello people!

I'm tired of Titillium and TitilliumText22L! It's not legible in small sizes or in 11, 13, 14px in the sites or blogs! ...
I need a free and ORIGINAL font which..."

I am sick and tired of being the only profession on earth that some people assume all should work for free. What if Kevin walked into a car dealer and said:

"Hello people!

I'm tired of MY KLUNKER! It's not drivable in small trips or long! ...
I need a free and BRAND NEW Mercedes!..."

Would someone there kindly explain that cars take time and skill to build? No, it is just common sense that you get what you pay for.

kevintheophile's picture

@Rubens

Because of you, I came back, first I answers your arguments but I want to tell the problem that I found, to you, it wasn't Titillium, it was ClearType.

These threads always make me want less to be on Typophile… I really, honestly, hold you all up to a higher standard than this.
Me either.

What do you want this typeface for? To use it on websites, you'll have to either have it on Flash or an image of some kind or use some kind of @font-face thing (I'm not too familiar with those), because nobody will have this font on their systems and it won't show up on regular html text. Why not just use Verdana, Georgia, Tahoma, Arial, Trebuchet? (I guess, from reading your other threads, you've been over this.)
* I want this typeface for the blogs and sites. I've already used CSS @font-face from Kernest. I don't want to use the famous, pouplar and traditional fonts (Arial, Helvetica and Verdana) for my blogs and sites because many blogs with these fonts are similar. I don't like when all the blogs have same font and are similar. I want my blog or site be different and have different font.

Typefaces are hard to produce and design, you need expertise, time, the right tools; all good type-designers (those who will, logically, produce the best fonts) are fully aware of this and feel/know they deserve compensation for their hard work. I'd love to produce quality typefaces and give them out, but the day I finally get the expertise and the tools and come up with the first one, it's possible that I'll think twice about that. After all, the tools cost money, the expertise might, too, and my time should probably have some value.
It's true. You're very right. :-(

You should also know it's common for people to come here asking for free fonts (whatever for), and the very first ones might not have had this treatment, but by now this is the regular treatment; it's just become such a common thing that people here don't want to take the time to explain all of this and whatever else, because, for them, it's a repeating event. We easily forget that other people might not be aware of all this, regardless of how long they've been a member on this site.
I agree with you again. You're very right. Since today, I stopped asking someone for the fonts. I won't ask ever/more their help. I'm tired of that ignorant and unsuportable or ubereable or "ugly" people of this forum.

Also, there's a lot of technical things you don't seem to be up-to-speed about, judging from your posts, and this forum is very specific; so much so that we usually prefer to discuss the technicalities over explaining little, now-to-us-seemingly-obvious things like how to increase letters in Fontlab or any other software. You might need to study more, read more, and search for answers before you ask. You know, browse the web, search help-files, search Typophile on Google (try the following on Google: site:typophile.com free fonts), etc.; many of the things we want to know are explained somewhere. Also, you might need to be more specific with what you're asking for and why so that people can really help you.
I have already made it. I always search, research for this and other goals.

Isn't there a page where the gist of this is explained? Can't we just direct people like Kevin to that instead of resorting to this…? If not, why not just not answering them…? Sure, ignoring people is wrong too, but blatantly alienating is worse…
I agree totally with you. When I alerted, alarmed, counselled and gave the tips to the type designers about the danger of the pirate fonts and the lack of EULA, these type deisgner didn't hear, ignored me, they're still blind, easily d-u-p-e-s. I repented of having counselled them, because they made me of fool/silly/goof and after foolished. I repented again. But I'm not fool than them. They who are more fool than me by having ignored my counsels, joked about me and mocked of me. Therefore, I got out of this forum. The people of this forum aren't good, kind or humble.

kevintheophile's picture

Rubens and people, I want to tell the problem that I found and discovered. It wasn't Titillium, it was ClearType.

At house I tested the Windows Xp Professional and Windows Seven. At Windows Seven, I got surprised when I saw Titillium is totally legible and beautiful in the small sizes at my blogs. At Windows Xp Professional, I tested the Titillium font, it wasn't legible in the small sizes. Verdana, Veggieburger, Yanone Kaffeesastz, etc aren't legible in small sizes in this system either. But not because of the systems. I discovered it was ClearType. While Windows Seven has optimized and activated ClearType, Windows Xp profession hadn't optimized or activated the ClearType. I went to my friend's house who uses the Windows Xp Professional, I test the Titillium, it wasn't totally legible in the small sizes, when I changed to Arial, Helvetica and Verdana, I got frightened when I saw that Arial, Helvetica and Verdana aren't legible at all, became terrible, were distorted to pixels or bittamped. I also tested the high quality paid fonts at MyFonts.com in his computer, they weren't legible at all, were terrible! I understood that it was ClearType, it wasn't optimized or activated. I went to cyber cafe, I tested three computers which Windows XP Professionl, only in two computers they have optimized and activated ClearType, Titillium is totally legible and in another one computer happened the same thing that my friend's computer.

Be alert about ClearType.

I have to write a warning to the visiters and readers when they visit mu blog or site that they must correct or download the ClearType when the fonts aren't legible in their comouters.

If you don't know what ClearType, there's the links for you to learn:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/cleartype/tuner/step1.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ClearType

Frode Bo Helland's picture

The problem is not Cleartype per se. The problem is more complex: Different operating systems and browsers use different rendering engines, different fonts have different amounts of hinting (a coding language that helps the rendering engines interpret curves as pixels at low resolutions) and different font smoothing settings and there’s also different font formats.

Rendering on Windows is, by now, roughly 30% Greyscale – 70% Cleartype. Greyscale is declining rapidly, and some time in the future we’ll probably get DirectWrite which does a better job in some cases.
The pixellated look you see is a font displayed with Greyscale rendering that have the font smoothing settings turned off at some sizes (some think this helps readability). Too look good with those settings, you need A LOT of hinting. With Verdana, which is one of the best at this, the hinters spent years to get it right and the actual design of the letters also sort of confine to the pixel grid. (It’s advanced.)
At Typekit the best fonts probably have more like a couple of days or weeks worth of hinting, which will make it look so-so with Greyscale rendering and fairly good with Cleartype rendering. The worst fonts are terrible, with no hinting or perhaps some autohinting, like Titillium (and it’s also not a very good typeface in the first place, some people even felt it was a ripoff of another typeface called Klavika). This is the downside of typography being such a trendy thing nowadays: lot’s of flash, not so much substance.

Mac OSX (the other large operating system) use something called Quartz rendering that makes everything smooth. People differ in opinions on whether it’s good or not. (The idea is that letterforms are more important than fitting everything to the pixel grid.)

Some Linux systems use Freetype rendering, which last time I checked look quite good indeed. This is a very low number, though.

As for your request for a squarish font that you can use with @font-face: Although it’s not squarish, I think FF Nuvo Web give a similar techy feel. It is also available via Typekit. Neither of these options are free, and it’s up to you to decide between subcribtion and a one-time fee.

Arno Enslin's picture

@ Kevin

I want this typeface for the blogs and sites. I've already used CSS @font-face from Kernest. I don't want to use the famous, pouplar and traditional fonts (Arial, Helvetica and Verdana) for my blogs and sites because many blogs with these fonts are similar. I don't like when all the blogs have same font and are similar. I want my blog or site be different and have different font.

The sites are not primary similar because of the body text fonts! The meaning of fonts for the typographical quality of a website is overvalued on this board, because many people here have a financial interest in webfonts. Show me the websites, that are more attractive or more legible, because there are fonts for the body text embedded!

@ Ethan

What an arrogant reaction! I am sure, there are fields, on which other people are superior to you.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

Forgive me, my numbers are off. They should read: roughly 30% of every web visitor (all browsers and OS’s) will see their fonts rendered with Greyscale rendering.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

In addition, some professional desktop publishing applications have their own rendering engine, like for example Adobe Creative Suite.

Older Safari versions running on Windows also use a rendering similar to OSX’s Quartz rendering.

As stated, this is complicated. Fonts that do a good job in all these situations are likely to cost money. Consider the fact that decent fonts in the first place — even before hinting — might take years to finish.

rubenDmarkes's picture

@Kevin
This is what I was talking about (and indeed what I actually thought about, but forgot to mention in the heat of writing :P) when I wrote of technicalities. You might not be aware of this, but I've expressed my dislike of Cleartype in this forum (in fact, of all anti-aliasing at small sizes) and I never use it, always turn it off. With Cleartype on, you can use any typeface with some degree of safeness that the outlines will be maintained and that the typeface will be recognizable, but then you'll see that not only you still need a good typeface, with good hinting (which gives you a typeface which plays nice with anti-aliasing but also should with aliasing), but also you get this halo around letters which, to me, not only makes everything look blurry, but almost denies the fundamental idea of text which is that it is black ink on white paper. But that's just me, I always rub my eyes when I look at Cleartype text because I think I might have blurry vision. So you have to take into consideration that different people will see your sites differently because they'll have different computers, operating systems and overall definitions and setups.

@Dezcom
I know that. I understand that. And so do you. And that's why I expect better from regular and older users of Typophile. We are aware of all that and we should also be aware that some are not.
We always get caught up comparing type with other items, but we have to understand it's not the same as a car. It will never be. People feel entitled to letters; letters appear everywhere. They're free. You buy a computer, there they are. You can write stuff, print stuff. Type is comparable to not many things. And we should be aware of this. We can't act as if everybody who comes here should know what they won't. Type is not your ordinary product. It's mainly ideas in a digital bag, it's not a physical object, made with iron and rubber and what not. I mean, we know this, it's even silly for me to mention it, but we do have to understand that type is not a common product and can't really be compared with one; unless you're trying to make a point to explain this to someone, in which case it should be noted that you're just making a point.

And I thought about what you said after posting and understood that it was probably a typical Yiddish joke, and I'm not one of those people who discriminate their humour (you know, call it “dark humour”): I'll make a joke about 9/11 or deformities as easily as a scatological joke, and hyperbole is one of my favourite types of humour, I don't care about the morality of humour. But still, we went from someone asking for something not that irrational to suggesting, even if it's under the guise of humour, that he should get cancer. That's a bit of a stretch. Besides, I think you're not even like me in that respect; you do always display a great sense of humour and an enjoyment in building and sharing jokes, but I believe you do impose some limits on it, so it seemed out of place that you'd not only make such a joke, but use it as a throwing weapon. (I'm sorry for writing as if I know you, but, you know… I hang around here, I read what you write; so I kind of do know you.)

I didn't say we should apologize for people like Kevin, and you know that. The truth is, he wasn't acting as if type designers should work for free, because that would imply that he was fully informed on what he was saying. He was just asking for something that, to him, sounded reasonable. We shouldn't apologize for them, but we do have a lead role in presenting them with the data and in raising awareness of these things.

Music had (and still has) this same problem that type has, but some steps have been taken in order to protect the industry. With iTunes, for example, they made buying music cool, so people developed a notion that it should be payed for.
… but maybe it really shouldn't! Can't you see it both ways? Don't you understand it both ways? I mean, it's just soundwaves. If I walk around on the street, I'll eventually hear it. Type is in a somewhat similar position (although it's a tool and music is mostly entertainment), and people don't understand that. There's MyFonts or Fontshop, but they're not iTunes for fonts because they're not famous or popular enough.

Anyway, I just think we should always display some fairplay in these situations and it makes me sad that we don't. It makes me sad to see intolerant reactions from people whom I consider to be grown-up, smart, cultivated and thus indeed tolerant.
And there I go writing a lot again. I'm sorry for that.

nathanielpr's picture

hey, new guy here.

has anyone considered pushing for a "new to the forum" section? this is pretty much SOP on forums, and can help alleviate the pains of commonly asked questions that shouldn't be asked.

kevintheophile's picture

@Frank
The problem is not Cleartype per se. The problem is more complex: Different operating systems and browsers use different rendering engines, different fonts have different amounts of hinting (a coding language that helps the rendering engines interpret curves as pixels at low resolutions) and different font smoothing settings and there’s also different font formats.
Exactly! You've much reason and are very right. I was going to preview how the font FF Nuvo Web Pro looked in various browsers of each operating system, I tested and realized much different among the appearence of the letters in each browser of each operating system, with or without ClearType. I think I have to cintinue using Titillium, if the visitors and readers complain about me, I have to change the font to Verdana or increase the size, but I'll continue using the Titillium for the images and Flash images or animations.

The worst fonts are terrible, with no hinting or perhaps some autohinting, like Titillium (and it’s also not a very good typeface in the first place, some people even felt it was a ripoff of another typeface called Klavika). This is the downside of typography being such a trendy thing nowadays: lot’s of flash, not so much substance
If you don't continue I continue using the Titillium, I'll buy the two or three fonts Klavika soonly, not only this typeface, I must buy the other fonts too. But I don't have time of going to the bank for making the credit cards and buying the fonts.

@Rubens
You're very right and have the same opinions that Frank has. I accept your counsels and tips. I learned with Frank about the hinting and the appearance of various different browsers of each operating system and now I learned with you again about the hinting.

@Armo
Show me the websites, that are more attractive or more legible, because there are fonts for the body text embedded!
My blog is private.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

At Typekit, there’s also a tab called “browser samples” connected to each typeface that might be helpful.

I hope you understand the amount of work creating decent type takes. That’s why you were met with laughter and sarcasm.

Rob O. Font's picture

kevinthepeople> Be alert about ClearType.

Yes, we understand this and many of us are working hard to help solve this problem. We have been working to expand the best web text families, and to create a new suite of text-only font families in a variety of styles, and to add meta data to fonts. To get around the combination Quartz/Standard-Cleartype-None solution to the 20-year transition/non-transition of users from aliased to antialiased text type on a broadening variety of screens is hard work.

Many people here are working on and supporting readers in developing simple- and inexpensive-to-use products, but they will not soon be offered by foundries alone, as many have pointed out it's expensive. Until more OS/Foundation/Web-Based Enterprise awaken to this issue, free fonts like your not entirely unreasonable specification, are somewhere in the future.

In the mean time, I suggest kevinthepeople evaluate how important the early adoption of an @fontface-based visual text identity is to you? You must please excuse some of the truly hysterical responses here. I've already been hysterical, others are still working it out.

Dex> I am working on a similar font, it is called "The Emperors New Clothes"

We've already been through this, The Emperors New Clothes is what got k.t.people here.:)

Ethan> I'd like to hear how Berlow would respond.

And, it reminds me of Rosalind Russell's line, hand on hip I think, in His Girl Friday:
"Gentlemen of the press!?", except that the badgered girl is not going to jump out the window, and she's not alone by a few billion.

Cheers!

Arno Enslin's picture

@ Kevin

My blog is private.

(Like this one?: http://giraffenland.de/images/Pferd_tagebuch.gif)

In other words, your blog is the only website, about which you know, that it is different because of the embedded fonts. (That’s more, than I know at the moment.)

kevintheophile's picture

@Armo, yes, it's, it's only for my friends, relatives and the known that I know and I trust, I want to limit the number of 100 readers, because they want to imitate my blog, steal my favourite fonts and my images that I created. A blogger visited my blog, was crazy to imitate my blog and my favourite font — Aller and Aller Display, in other days, I visited his blog, I recognized the fonts that he was using and the new images that he created by himself, imitating the mine. He was so jealous of me for calling the attention of the people. When he posted an humour post, I wrote a comment wihout realizing his jokes and provokes, in the following day, they joked with me and I got embarrassed. I closed my blog and I stopped being member of his blog.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

How old are you Kevin?

kevintheophile's picture

Frank, didn't you see my birth date at my profile? Click in my profile.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

No, you’ve set it to “private”.

kevintheophile's picture

Frank, I'm 23 years old.

Frode Bo Helland's picture

Well, Kevin, free fonts like Aller get attention all over the internet. It’s not the best way to be unique. And if someone copies your work, don’t worry ’bout it. Just stay original!

Renaissance Man's picture

Kevin: Does Delicious work for you?

http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/delicious.html

Nick: Very clever. But I suggest the name iFont.

kevintheophile's picture

Renaissance, Kernest and Typekit don't have Delicious. I need it for CSS @font-face.

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