Typophile in a Swingstate

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Tina Parker's picture
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Joined: 16 Oct 2004 - 8:05pm
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Arafat was The Corrupt Leader. And I don’t know if the the word “leader” is the right one. He was rich. And the people?

Hrant H Papazian's picture
Joined: 3 May 2000 - 11:00am
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> Never said that

Yes you did, just not in this thread.
When I once brought up the fact that criticism of Jews is unheard of in US media, you brought up the example of Seinfeld making fun of some rabbi, and said that it’s only proper that only Jews should criticize other Jews. Are only Germans allowed to criticise Nazis? Considering what’s been happening, that comparison isn’t nearly as unfair as you might like poeple to believe. You can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

Painting those who merely criticise the current Jewish mindframe (not Jews throughout history, and not individual Jews) for being destructive as “anti-Semitic” is a foundational intimidation tactic in the US.

BTW, check out this wonderfully balanced thing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3742518.stm
How much proof does one need, really.

> I wouldn’t call his views balanced, but I would call them rational.

Whatever allows you to sleep at nights, eh?
Have you ever in your life accused a Jew of being anti-Arab?
When an Israeli minister says Arabs are lice, or a cancer, you should voice public outrage. Some Jews in Israel do — look at the truly brave soldiers who refuse to serve in Gaza. Do Arabs not criticize themselves? BinLaden wants to bring down corrupt Arab governments, and many Arabs like him for that. In this thread, the only self-critical person has been Nadine. Raphael would shoot himself before admitting there’s anything at all wrong with any Israeli policy. Is there a thing in the Jewish psyche that prohibits self-criticism (at least in public)? How is that suppose to make others feel about you? What do you think of an individual who never admits fault? Are Jews inherently and eternally faultless? I ask you: Are they Chosen? If you say no, do you not then see a problem with the Settlers?

> the blood and tears and brave fighting of the Jewish population …. made their state legitimate.

No, their domination of the psyche of the British first, and then the Americans did that.
Without that Israel wouldn’t even have been created, much less lasted.

The thing is, I don’t mind that of itself, it’s nice to see superpowers controlled to such an extent by a minority culture, except that it’s now being used to rape and pillage. The problem isn’t power, but how it’s used — that’s the whole point. Remember, I’m a monarchist. I don’t mind central, minority authority. What I mind is unfairness. And I think most world citizens feel this way.

> Jews are still under attack in various parts of the world

Well, maybe you shouldn’t help that along so much, eh? Don’t play the victim to that extent, when you have a nuclear arsenal, you get billions in aid, and you’re holding Arab land illegally — it just disgusts people and fans their animosity. Are they right to hate you from time immemorial? Of course not. Are they right to pressure you to resume behaving properly? Of course they are. Behave, and future generations will treat you better. It’s your only hope.

BTW, why are Armenians not hated like this? We also have an ancient and relatively wealthy dispora, we’re also surrounded by enemies, and we also suffered genocide. Think about it. Are we not hated because we don’t have the power you do? No, because people like power. Arabs like power. They loved America, they cheered when the US won the cold war! But then they saw what was happening, and now they hate the US. And this is what happened to me personally: I loved America until I was about 20. Living here, seeing the legendary American desire for Fairness being usurped, seeing the way Kuwait and Iraq were played against each other, made me realize what the problem really was. Now I just love the America that could have been, that maybe one day will be. But that it won’t be in the immediate future — quite the contrary. Part of my dream was taken away, and I most certainly can blame certain people for that (and I’m actually not singling out Jews here), and try to get them to take the first step to treating the world fairly: admit they’re doing something wrong.

William, your nominal feelings for suffering Arabs and your ideas of compromise sound dandy, but it remains that Jews don’t seem ready to share. Because of the Holocaust* and because of their military domination, Jews might not see the need to compromise. But the reality on the ground is that you’re increasingly miserable. Not as miserable as Arabs, but you have the greater power, hence the greater responsability. I repeat: for a healthy world, power and responsability have to be tied. Greed, fear and hate hurt you in the end.

* Has enough time passed from that, I wonder? Have enough reparations been made already? Any Jew who dares suggest such things is ostracized, and you know it. Do you really care about the suffering of other peoples? You must care, if you’re to prosper.



John, the intent of that quote is noble, but it doesn’t actually strike me as truly representative. There is much insight to be had from reading history, and keeping your mind open and your heart warm. But sometimes the realities on the ground paint a very different -and unbalanced- picture. And the only way to see this is physical presence.

BTW, does JudeoWestern society care to mention for example that the Nazis came to power because of the way Germany was treated after WWI? Since the West created Israel partly out of guilt, how long do we have to wait for them to feel guilty about the Palestinians?

hhp

William Berkson's picture
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003 - 11:00am
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Hrant, here is what I actually said earlier in the thread:

“I don’t hear from you (or Hrant) a whisper of criticism of the wrongs committed by the enemies of Israel. You are critical of only one side. I am quite willing to be critical of both sides, and I think that is a sign that my view is more objective and closer to reality.”

Here is your characterization of what I said:

“It was you who has said that critism of Jews should only come from Jews. Talk about a convenient way to avoid change.”

Your claim of what I said about Seinfeld I think is just as wildly false, but I don’t find the thread right now.

I have also been critical of Israel’s settlements, contrary to what you say.

Nadine Chahine's picture
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Joined: 24 Apr 2004 - 3:24am
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This is the history that we know:
http://www.palestinerefugees.org/HTML/government.htm

» the original reason is that….

Belfour’s Promise (1917) was way before Hitler came to the scene. The last 60 years have been one long guilt trip.

“Some 87 years ago, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, promised the Zionists a home in Palestine, with the

William Berkson's picture
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003 - 11:00am
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Nadine, the ‘history’ that you link to is I believe wildly inaccurate in many respects, and if you rely on it you will be misled. If you read historians who are attempting to be balanced, I believe you will get a different story, not painted in ‘good guys and bad guys’ terms. Or if you read history from both sides, you can start to sort it out for yourself — not an easy task, I might add.

The most important thing to understand about the history, I believe, is that there were rights and wrongs on both sides. As Amos Oz says in the article that John linked to, one of the basic stories is of right verses right. The Arab Palestinians had a right to live in their homes, and the Jews had a right to have a refuge. These were rights were in conflict.

I don’t want to get mired in the details of the history, which is complex, but just one point about the Balfour declaration: it was delibrately ambiguous about whether the Jews would be simply given refuge, or given a state. Also the declaration specifically said that the rights of non-Jewish Palestinians must not be violated. What happened to resolve the deliberate ambiguity is that the British allowed but progressively restricted Jewish immigration, the most severely just on the eve of WWII, when the Jews most needed it. The decision for a state only happened after WWII, the UN decided on it.

I will post on Said’s views shortly, but I have to get back to work!