....about the history of the Greek Orthodox, the faith... - the word "art" conjures up associations and values that are irrelevant in the greek orthodox context - such as "self expression". [art=lettering=painting etc etc ].


now. what do you mean by "history of that "A"?


David Hamuel

Stephen, hopefully a real expert (like Gerry) will chime in, but I'd say the lettering on that sign is a somewhat westernized rendition of an old Byzantine script. The T26 font seems to be closer to the authentic stuff, an example of which I happen to have:



It's a detail from a painting in one of the larger monasteries in Thessaloniki, Greece.

hhp

Here's a stab in the dark. I would guess that the lettering stems from Greek Orthodox Manuscripts or rather manuscripts held as important to the Greek Orthodox church. -- Hmm. I'm curious now. I think I'll do look.

Hrant,

the sample is common (the lettering). in that case - it's just greek history.

but only Gerry Leonidas can tell.....


David Hamuel

David - I mean that I'm interested in the history of these
letterforms, not the religion. Unless they are connected.

As has been proven through history, what they saw wasn't always what they perceived it to be. Meaning, the humanists had mistaken the manuscripts which they found, started copying the forms of letters, et voila now we have the roman letter form. I've simplified the problem entirely but you must see my point. Perhaps someone somewhere saw in a manuscript an illuminated letterform, liked it, assumed it to be of the Highest Order and thus most appropriate. More conjecture. I'm still looking.

For those of you who are interested in seeing some amazingly historical items: http://prodigi.bl.uk/illcat/TourIntroGen.asp

Not that this is a match at all, but it is interesting: http://prodigi.bl.uk/illcat/tours/Add19352.htm

-- This one is just funny. http://prodigi.bl.uk/illcat/tours/Add49622.htm

Crazy Tiff! Hah, that was the first manuscript I clicked on!
That is a great resource. Thank you.

Manuscripts are what I should've focused on instead of Dwiggins. The study of paleography. :^)

Try this one too! Make sure you do the larger of the two choices, because you can zoom in to a decent magnification.

http://www.bl.uk/whatson/exhibitions/lindisfarne/ttp.html

> Manuscripts are what I should've focused on instead of Dwiggins.

Wash your mouth out, girl! ;-)

BTW, isn't paleography about carved letters?

hhp

Paleography is the study of manuscripts & lettering, basically.

Here is one of my favorite resources, online: http://labyrinth.georgetown.edu/

I appreciate the compliments, but I am not an expert in Byzantine manuscripts, and being on vacation I am away from my library. Off the top of my head the lettering on the church near Stephen's office is not a direct copy of any hand I can recall. I think there is more than a bit of poetic licence in that one; it also reminded me of some recent work I've seen in Moscow.
I will be in Athens on Friday, so can have a look and try to see if I am mistaken and can find an exemplar for it.
Gerry
p.s. the study of carved letters, or rather carved texts is epigraphy.

Thanks Gerry. I appreciate your time.

More precisely, paleography is the study of ancient signs, writings, languages, and forms of writing.

Sometimes I think that those mandatory classes on Greek and Latin in High School were not such a waste of time :-)

The Lindisfarne Gospels are from 30 minutes north of me (though they are now stored in London), but when they came to the area for a month in the cities main gallery, people where lined up around the block to see it.

The first time I saw them, when visiting the British Library, I cried. I'm not lying. I really had tears in my eyes.

Hmm. I should clarify that.

The first time I saw the Lindisfarne Gospels.

Clumsy segue: If you're ever in Austin, TX, you might
do a lot of weeping at this place.

This is from today's LA Times.

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-et-ransom5aug05,1,5145529.story?coll=la-home-leftrail/

(sorry, couldn't link that for some reason)


name: typophile
password: typophile

The Harry Ransom Humanities Center has more than
36 million manuscripts + 1 million rare books + much more.

Among the treasures is one of these


bj

The LA Times link is not working.

But you can go to www.latimes.com
and see the story teaser....third down, left column.

apologies.

name: typophile
password: typophile

BJ RULES! Thank you.

Mr. Leonidas,

every Reader in uk is an expert


David Hamuel Bracher

nah, that sign is totally westernized
i think i had a byzantine greek font somewhere, seems i've lost it though
by the name of it, it sounds more like a sect to me

The lettering is more Russian/Bulgarian than Greek. This is a style of lettering called Vyaz', which is often used in Russian Orthodox icon painting. It is ultimately derived from Byzantine Greek forms. The example Stephen posted is a simplified Vyaz' typeface, adapted to the Latin script of course. Very often, Vyaz' lettering is incredibly complicated, featuring letters of varying heights that interlock with each other or form ligatures. Here is a piece of Vyaz' handlettering:

That is beautiful. Brian (Bonislawsky) needs to see this.

Thanks for that, John. It's wonderful.
Tiff's right. Would make a lovely tattoo.

Do you know what that says, John? Is there any chance you could post it side by side with the actual cyrillic and a translation?

Thanks for pointing me to this Tiffany. Very interesting indeed.

To me, the original specimen posted by Stephen actually looks like a Latinized version of Old Church Slavonic.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ocslavonic.htm
http://www.paratype.com/library/newstyles.asp?fontcode=DA_BLG3

although I have also found vyaz to have alot of similarities as well...

http://www.paratype.com/library/newstyles.asp?fontcode=TM_FTV

On a little side offshoot, I've found this site that has some interesting manuscript images that use Cyrillic and Glagolitic.

http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/slav/clzsprbx.htm

As far as a tattoo goes, I would be very interested in something along the lines of the style John Hudson posted. I only have to learn the language a little and/or get something to translate for the tattoo first. (maybe I'll have it for the next TypeCon.)

I like how the interlocking sample that John posted has both a lettering and runic look to it because of its condensed nature.

Sorry, I've no idea what my vyaz' sample says. I've tried transcribing it into a more easily readable style, but there are several letters that I'm not sure about. Also, the text is in Old Church Slavonic, and uses letters that are no longer part of the typical modern Slavic alphabets. I have a font in the ustav style that includes all the necessary letters, but as I say I can't identify all the forms in the vyaz' sample: some of the variants are beyond my level of knowledge.