Newbie questions
I'm a self taught graphic designer who is still learning every day. I have been reading Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst and The Complete Manual to Typography.
My questions are, if parantheses are suppossed to be shifted so that they are optically centered with the text they enclose, how come they aren't just designed that way in the font programming? Are there instances where the parentheses need to be below the baseline?
On the same line of thinking, how come the proper apostrophe character isn't the default, as well as the proper close quote character when you hit shift? Shouldn't dumb quotes be optional characters instead of the defaults. I know there are ways to reprogram your computer to do this, but why haven't the companies that sell fonts corrected this in the font coding itself?
The answers are probably in the books I'm reading, but to a beginning typophile like myself, they are a bit, ahem, dry reading.
Thanks.




















5.Jan.2005 5.25pm
The answer to the first question is that parentheses are usually designed to fit well primarily with lowercase characters and/or mixed case characters. I suppose all caps with parentheses is less called for as a rule.
The answer to the second question is that computer character sets are descended from those used by teletype terminals which were in turn descended from typewriters. To keep the number of keys to a minimum, the straight quote mark was invented for typewriters. True typographic quote marks were added to computer character sets later when computers were adapted to set type.
5.Jan.2005 5.43pm
to a beginning typophile like myself, they are a bit, ahem, dry reading
hmmm... maybe i'm just weird, but i loved reading Elements. I need to read it again...
Most punctuation is designed to work best with the lowercase. One of the great features of OpenType is that if you set something in an all-caps setting, OT savvy programs can adjust the punctuation accordingly on the fly. nifty eh?
In the same respect, most typesetting applications do the same thing with quotemarks - automaticaly replacing (in most cases) the appropriate quotes for the job. Not all applications do this, resulting in my pet peeve of typography - the ugly, stray prime mark as an apostrophe.
Even though good applications should be able to do as much of this kind of thing as possible without you having to do a lot of tweaking, you should be aware of these kinds of things so that you can make sure that these auto replacements are in fact doing what you want them to and not just messing up your text setting.
5.Jan.2005 6.27pm
I suppose all caps with parentheses is less called for as a rule.
Except when introducing acronyms: e.g., the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) ...
5.Jan.2005 6.40pm
but shouldn't those actually be smallcaps? LOL *breaks out Elements*
Acutally, I guess if you follow Bringhurst's suggestions it should be Nasa, since that's how we read it (page 49).
5.Jan.2005 8.56pm
Nasa is a little rare because you read it like a word, acronyms such as International Business Machines (IBM) or What you see is what you get (WYSIWYG) don't pronounce as words so well.
I would simply use the same conventions used for all other acronyms in the piece. and if you choose to kern or vertically adjust the baseline I would bring to your attention another point Bringhurst makes.
Kern consistently and modestly or not at all. (page 32)
6.Jan.2005 2.36am
"Dumb" quotes have become the norm. (It's a dumb old world, innit?)
Curly quotes tip off average readers that the text is too difficult for them (or the product advertised too upscale). Or that it's historical usage.
The demise of the curly quote makes sense -- why complicate typography with unnecessary alternate glyphs for the same character, whose usage is determined by arcane contextual conventions?
There is a parallel: the long "s" was a similarly deployed alternate form abolished during a period of rapid typographic modernization, c.1800.
Perhaps a visual distinction between start and finish quotes served a functional purpose when sentences were generally much longer, but not today. Any other functional reason?
Aesthetically, curly quotes have possibly one leg to stand on: they harmonize with serifed faces which betray their calligraphic origins by having a marked stroke contrast, and angled stress. Here, the non-calligraphic vertical hash-mark is not quite right, but perhaps no more bizarre than the perfectly circular old-style zero which is deemed proper for such faces. For the vast majority of type genres, the "hash mark" is quite at home, and in many, such as the typical grotesque, Helvetica, it is the "proper" quote mark which is aesthetically at odds with the letter-forms, not the hash mark.
6.Jan.2005 3.46am
>why haven't the companies that sell fonts corrected this in the font coding itself
We follow convention, which is what customers want.
For instance, here is a prototype sample of a custom font I designed a couple of years ago. The quote marks are the same for all three character positions: left, right, and hash. You can even use it for inches. However, the client requested that the quote marks follow the standard arrangement.
Obviously, it would be better to have a single glyph for all 3 traditional usages, because there is no way that "smart" quote software in InDesign, Quark, etc., can distinguish between an abbrevation and a quotation -- hence rendering the mark in abbreviations such as '05 the wrong way round.
The only better alternative that would work: total typographic literacy, taught in grade school, the fastidious way writing used to be taught. I remember, back in the '60s, being marked for an essay out of 20: 10 marks for grammar, 5 for spelling, and 5 for writing. No marks for creative expression, which is where the emphasis is now.
6.Jan.2005 9.09am
[Thanks everyone for your replies. It's much appreciated.
The books aren't that dry to me. That was just a bit of my sarcasm that sometimes doesn't translate well online. One of my resolutions this year was to give up using emoticons in emails and online forums, so my sense of humor will be a bit harder to pick up.
Actually, I found Bringhurst's book quite fascinating, up until the Golden Rule chapter, which could've been written in Chinese because I couldn't understand a thing.
Even though I'm a newbie, I do love type and typography. I remember last year my wife and I were at a wedding for one of her co-workers. We were seated at a table with one of the co-worker's professors from Art Center. We got to talking and he asked me what my favorite typeface was. I replied that it was Scala at that time. His face lit up and he said that he used that a lot for his classes and we had a short discussion. The whole time, our wives were just sitting there quiet, yet both thinking, "Good God! Couldn't they at least talk about
6.Jan.2005 9.33am
sports. Couldn't they at least talk about sports.
Sorry about that. Sometimes the email reply system cuts me off at the end. Didn't want to leave you guys hanging.
Mark, by the way, I'm the guy who had a bit of trouble downloading Coquette in mid-December. It's lovely. You'll soon be seeing it in signs at our DFS Duty Free stores at airports across the US. I believe our closest store to you would be in JFK Terminal 4 in New York. I'd post a sample of the art, but I don't have access to our servers here at work.
6.Jan.2005 9.38am
David, I've read Elements once through and once more excluding the Golden Ratio chapters (and keep it at my desk for ref.). I'm still struggling to find time to really dig into it (grad school, probably) and understand its application to typography and book design fully, In spite of the fact that I've already learned about and used the Golden Ratio/Mean/Rectangle in art school. That chapter reminds me just a tad of G
6.Jan.2005 10.46am
Parenthesis seem less problematic, brackets are the ones to
pay attention to.
As far as quotes go, most desktop publishing (MS apps) and
design apps (Adobe apps) do quotes automatically. It's when
you want foot and inch marks that you have to get tricky.
___
New years resolution to quit using emoticons?! I dig
emoticions. Especially the Japanese ones! It's the AIM and
iChat ones I can do without.
(^_^)
(-_-)
More Japanese emoticons: http://www2.tokai.or.jp/yuki/kaomoji/
6.Jan.2005 11.58am
why haven't the companies that sell fonts corrected this in the font coding itself
Character sets and encodings are not determined by font companies. They are defined by standards organisations. We have inherited an ASCII standard, itself based on typewriter keyboards, in which there is only one single quote mark and one double-quote mark, and this is what appears on keyboards to this day. So unless the user goes out of his way to manually insert correct typographical 'curly' quotes, we are reliant upon automatic substitition, using heuristics that cannot distinguish an abbreviated year date such as '05 from the beginning of a piece of quoted text. There is nothing in the font coding that can be done to address this issue.
6.Jan.2005 12.47pm
You are not serious are you? You think that quote marks should be abolished.... Oy vey!
6.Jan.2005 1.42pm
>quote marks should be abolished
Let's distinguish between a quote mark, which is a punctuation character, and the several different glyphs which can be used to represent it.
Consider the impediments to correct glyph usage:
- complex key commands required
- specialist typographic knowledge required
- "smart" software which establishes mis-use as a norm (eg as in '05)
- norms established by non-professionals (everyone's a typesetter)
- proper quotes becoming associated with niche usage (upscale products, corporate publishing, historical genres), losing mass relevance.
And compare with the demise of the long s.
Proper typographic quotes: a lost cause.
So really, wouldn't it make more sense to have one diagonal "quote glyph" (see sample above) to be used for left, right and inch/feet marks? many Sans faces, eg Myriad, are practically like that already.
6.Jan.2005 2.41pm
>>wouldn't it make more sense to have one diagonal "quote glyph"
Wouldn't it make more sense to have just one typeface?
Who said stuff had to make more sense?
6.Jan.2005 3.48pm
Nick, I do really like your slanted, one glyph solution. I think it's
very clever for the situation you describe. But I wouldn't want
that to become the only option. I like that this adds to the
collective 'vocabulary' of parts, if you will, and would never want
to lose the typographic options of something as expressive as
quote marks.
7.Jan.2005 4.36am
Steve, Joe, I love curly quotes as much as the next typophile.
>why haven't the companies that sell fonts corrected this in the font coding itself?
Because we haven't figured it out -- yet.
But I think I've just solved the problem.
1. Consider the left and right forms as alternate glyphs for the same character, which is sort of the logic that gave birth to dumb quotes in the first place (and kept proper quotes off the computer keyboard).
2. Create curly-quote contextual alternates to dumb quotes, in an OpenType font.
After all, the smart-quotes feature of InDesign and Quark is a simple piece of contextual alternate coding -- OpenType allows sufficient complexity.
I haven't figured out the classes and substitution rules yet, but it shouldn't be too difficult.
7.Jan.2005 8.58am
[Nick Shinn wrote: >Because we haven't figured it out -- yet. But I think I've just solved the problem.<
Nick, what I meant by my original question regarding font coding is couldn't the proper apostrophe and close quotes be set as the default when you press the ' and " keys on the keyboard? The dumb single and close quote would be relegated to the alternate glyph position. Aside from typophiles, I don't think the average person would notice the change.
There would still be problems of course-it could only be applied to new font files that are sold. Most people would not take the time to update their existing fonts. And when people wish to express measurements in English, like 5'10" they would have to go to the alternate glyph.
7.Jan.2005 12.29pm
> couldn't the proper apostrophe and close quotes be set as the default when you press the ' and " keys on the keyboard? The dumb single and close quote would be relegated to the alternate glyph position.
There are actually some fonts which are set up similar to this, except the straight quotes are left out entirely, with right single and double quotes in their place. The first one I noticed was ITC Founder's Caslon, and I seem to recall it having been done on some others but can't remember exactly which.
I've actually done this on some of my own recent fonts. I feel a bit ambivalent about it--it's sort of a hack. Still, I've had no complaints. Anyway, they're display faces, and I can't see what use straight quotes have in display typography (except maybe in a headline for an article about not using straight quotes).
Incidentally, Nick, I think your idea about using OpenType to solve this problem is the right approach. It would leave the underlying text untouched, but display the typographically proper glyph. Unfortunately, the only programs which currently support contextual substition are those which already have smart quotes. Still, I think this would be a great long-term solution, especially if/when OS-level OpenType support improves. I wonder if you could even have "smart" primes with this technique?
7.Jan.2005 4.21pm
>the only programs which currently support contextual substition are those which already have smart quotes.
...but they are the ones that screw up abbreviations.
>I wonder if you could even have "smart" primes with this technique?
The OpenType coding would substitute left quote glyphs for a prime after a space (just as "smart quotes" does), except in the sequence: space-singleprime-figure -- where it would substitute a single right quote glyph. that would solve the '05 problem.
However, I don't think there's any way to distinguish between a "begin quote" and a "word abbreviation quote". So rock 'n' roll would still be wrong -- unless there were a dictionary of exceptions.
You know, that OpenType fix for the '05 problem could probably be implemented in InDesign and Quark.