Chris, I'll bet if you e-mail Gerry Leonidas [g.leonidas(at)reading(dot)ac(dot)uk] and ask ever-so politely he'd do his best to help you out.

Thanks Tiff!

Dear Chris, thank you for your interest in my essay in Typography Papers 1. I wish it were still available. There are a couple of essays on Cyrillic (en English) published more recently:

Chris, I have a photocopy of just just one element* of that article, the table showing the structural "rules" amongst the letters. Since the issue is out of print would it be OK for me to put that up? Ideally though you'd get a friend at a local university to ILL the whole issue for you.

* Back when I got my hands on TP#1 I didn't have the sense to copy the whole article I guess...

BTW, be sure to check out Adam's post #6 in this thead (that Paul just bumped):
http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/4100/12232.html

hhp

Maxim,
Thank you very much for your kind attention to my post. I am honored by your response. I will gladly look ino the articles you suggested.

ChrisL

Hrant,
I assume it would be okay to post the page you speak of. Photocopied files from library sources don't seem to break any laws so I assume out of print articles are alright as well.
Thanks also for the link to the previous discussion. Too bad Vladimir Yefimov's primer on designing Cyrillic letters is only available in Russian. Some enterprising publisher might be wise to translate it. It sounds like a great feature for a typography journal as well. Perhaps "Typo"? Maybe Filip is watching?
Thanks again for your always useful sources.

ChrisL

chris, you can always try to run it through babelfish, and it will turn out somewhat intelligible. although it does give the letter names funny translations (letter 4). I tried that last night and with a bit of decoding it makes sense, mostly. Also, I posted a link to the bottom of the thread that hrant referenced above and that one has some good illustrations that don't even need translating, for example i thought this was fairly straightforward:

if you really want a translation, i can do my best, but it may take a while to get it back to you... lemme know.

Paul,
I will try "Babelfish" first. I have never tried that before. Thanks for your kind offer. If after I debabelize it I still need some help, I may ask you to decifer a few lines.

Thanks,

ChrisL

Photocopied files from library sources don't seem to break any laws

It depends on how much you copy and for what use. I think posting something would go beyond "fair use" unless you limited yourself to a small portion.

so I assume out of print articles are alright as well.

As a publisher, I have to object to this notion, which I've seen not infrequently here on Typophile. Out of print does not mean out of copyright.

It also depends very much on where you are. In Europe, it seems to be pretty widely legal that you can photocopy an entire book if it is for your own use. In Canada, photocopying even one page for pretty much any purpose seems to be illegal, althought I suspect that this might have relaxed a little in recent years. Shortly after I was at university here, big signs went up around the photocopy machines in the library warning students that they should not copy any material that was still in copyright.

The point is that I would be happy to purchase it but it is unavailable. I don't want anyone to get into trouble so I will ask that Hrant not post the page he has. I will work it out with Gerry instead.

> It also depends very much on where you are.

And where you're from. :->

Chris, although I'm already in trouble (I think it first started on the 18th day of a June many years ago), and this seems totally Fair Use to me (not to mention financially inoffensive since the issue is out of print and neither bookfinder.com nor eBay show any availability), I guess I won't post the scan I'd already made, in public. I was going to wait 48 hours from my offer for any formal objection, and was planning on equating silence with tacit acceptance, but hey. In any case, if you can get your hands on the full article (or even better the full issue) one way or another it will doubtless be much more useful to you than one table.

Steve: Certainly out-of-print does not equal copyright-free, but it does have strong implications in the ethical sphere.

BTW, I did sic an online translator (but not babelfish, I don't think) on those pages back when Adam first mentioned them, and printed the result as a reference... as well as a source of much hilarity!

hhp

>Chris, although I'm already in trouble (I think it first started on the 18th day of a June many years ago),<

LOL!!! and me also on the 16th day of January 61 years ago :-)
I guess that is a palindrome.

ChrisL

So I guess a belated happy birthday is in order.

Well then, I think Chris should definitely get a copy of that article as a birthday gift!

hhp

Thanks guys!

I was going to wait 48 hours from my offer for any formal objection, and was planning on equating silence with tacit acceptance, but hey.

I am not silent.

OK, good to know - although Chris had already withdrawn the request.
(And maybe 48 hours was too... anxious - I'll make it longer next time.)

But for the record: Wouldn't it have been "fair use"? Not that I would so easily go against the direct known wishes of an author (as long as it's a reasonable person).

hhp

Wouldn't it have been "fair use"?

I find this question irrelevant. I disapprove public distribution of my works without my permission.

Well, I certainly have no problem classing ethical issues above the legal! :-)

hhp

Maxim,
I am truly sorry to have caused this problem for you or anyone else. I meant no harm and am sure Hrant's gesture intended no ill will as well.
There is so little good information on non-Latin scripts readily available in the USA. I was just trying to learn as much as possible from such a renowned typographer as yourself. Maxim, please accept my apology.
Just prior to coming online here in this forum, I finished reading your article and Vladmir Yefimov

The Czech TYPO magazine and the Argentine tipoGrafica are two channels that are highly accessible to type designers with things to say, very affordable for readers*, and beautifully presented. And bilingual.

* With TYPO openly offering PDFs of back issues.

hhp

>The Czech TYPO magazine...<

I agree, that is why in my earlier post I said:

>Some enterprising publisher might be wise to translate it. It sounds like a great feature for a typography journal as well. Perhaps "Typo"? Maybe Filip is watching? <

I am still waiting to hear if my subscription to Typo made it through.

ChrisL

A lot of magazines insist on being "originating" journals, which means they only publish new stuff. Probably has to do with prestige, and the fact that finding authors is usually easy anyway. Sometimes just giving a topic a different angle and rewriting parts of the text seems to be OK though.

hhp

In cases like this (with an out-of-print journal issue) to me the ideal would be to simply release the thing as a PDF. But I guess you have to get the OK of the authors. So maybe an advance warning to authors that when the issue runs out the contents will become freely accessible would work (to some extent).

hhp

I guess the usual problem is "not enough money in the typography audience." Maybe if we came up with a reality show where a dozen type designers would vote eachother off the Vandercook for too stringent of a EULA, then they would print a billion copies. I guess all the type designers would have to be naked and stupid beyond belief for that to work though :-)

ChrisL

Perhaps we are too small of an audience to interest book publishers.

Hey, I publish linguistics, which isn't exactly a massive market.
I would love to look at proposals for (multilingual) typography books. Seriously.

Maybe there are enough authors here on Typophile who would be interested in contributing material for a book Steve?

ChrisL

Hm. Maybe checking out the Copyright Licencing Agency's page for UK HE Institutions would be better than pronouncing on the hierarchy of ethics over law and the like (first return on Google for "copyright licensing UK", not too difficult).
Where we read that within a HEI you can photocopy 5% or an article or a chapter of a publication for study, or to distribute as part of a study pack, e.g. in the case of diatance learners. At the same time, it expressly forbids scanning in. Pretty simple; and could please any pedants inclined to observe that modern photocopiers are in effect scanners reflect on the distinction between a single copy whose destination is known, and unlimited, uncontrolled copies.

In the way of a postscript I will add that when Typo Papers started going out of print we did look into other distribution models. However, the earlier issues in particular were produced on a traditional workflow (paste-ups, film, etc.); to resurrect a print job from a legacy pre-press environment and generate PDFs is, as they say in some areas, non-trivial. So, don't hold your breath.

Gerry,
Thank you for your clarification on the copying issue and your insight.

It is strange how we have become accustomed to the digital world and PDFs have become nonchalantly assumed today. I spent nearly 30 years in the world of paste-up, rubylith, and camera created films yet now it seems like a century ago. I am spoiled by the immediacy we have today (here we are talking from half way around the world). I have to return to the sense of value that things had before.
Thanks for having the vision to have produced the Typo Papers material to begin with and thanks for your contributions here on Typophile.

ChrisL

By the way Gerry, your coffee cup photo reminds me of my grandmother's house. She used to read our fortunes from the pattern the grounds made on the sides of the cup. She always managed to predict great things for her grand children :-)

ChrisL

Chris, thank you for the kind words, but I should clarify that I was not in any way involved with bringing TypoPapers out. My earliest recollection of the project is from '95: Paul Stiff discussing spec sheets with three students he was supervising on the project; I was not a member of staff then.

As for grandmothers, I know exactly what you mean: mine always told me I was taller / more handsome / better in some respect than the previous time she had seen me -- invaluable feedback in the face of an expanding waistline. Now, well into her eighties, she lavishes the same objective commentary on my sons. If you believe her it is surprising that they have not been pre-selected for the Nobel Prize; then again, she talks to her television, so I will not rush to buy a tux.

I'd like to buy a copy of Typography Papers 1 and Graphis magazine no.345: May/June 2003.

If you have a copy you can spare, please contact me directly or post here.

Gerry, you do know that I'm in the US, not the UK.

hhp

And about the "distance learning" bit:
- Are the 5% photocopies supposed to be delivered by snailmail?
- I think Typophile is a great distance learning scheme! :-)

hhp

Of course I do, Hrant, but remind me why is this relevant? Chris asked for help, and my name was mentioned as someone who could; I clarified whether I can, and in what manner. You could do the same, as long as you keep in mind that the moment you bought a copy of any publication you essentially agree to respect the author's and publisher's copyright as determined by whichever legislation applies. Any decisions in the realm of ethics come over and above legal obligations, to further protect the rights holder, rather than open up distribution to third parties. So, even if the law allowed you to photocopy and distribute a TypoPapers article without clearance, the ethical stance would be to seek permission from the originator. But you could never claim an ethical ground for ignoring rights in the name of "freedom of information" or something similarly vacuous. (To be more precise: you could argue that there is a case for reviewing proprietary and patented/registered information in cases where substantial public interest is at stake, as in the case of pharmaceutical companies holding rights to vaccines -- but this is an exceptionally complicated point unlikely to be settled by us chatting away here.)

> remind me why is this relevant?

If I were to provide a scan for Chris, technically it would be legal, no?

> Any decisions in the realm of ethics come over and above legal obligations

Which is exactly what I said! And it seemed you objected. I was saying that whether it's legal or not is irrelevant to me because Maxim (a person I consider reasonable) doesn't want it made public.

hhp

In response to Steve's post, one thing I've learned in four years of linguistic publishing is that the line between linguistic academia and typography is very frequently thin enough as to go unseen--if it exists at all.

The key, I think, to success in publishing (or writing in the first place) works that deal with certain kinds of typography is to do so with the linguistic and the typography market simultaneously. There's a niche genre out there that's been way under-represented--"manuals" that deal with the broad and fine points of the world's writing systems (a volume devoted to each, of course). For example, someone needs to write a book that discusses every aspect of the Thai writing system: history, writing instruments, cultural aspects, minute characteristics of each character, etc.

It would sell, and in a few different markets at that.

Apologies to Maxim for suggesting someone go against his wishes and apologies to Gerry for opening up this can of worms. Looks like TypoPapers have achieved cult status. I'll wait a while and then maybe sell mine on ebay. ::wink::

Ok. I have to ask. If someone found TypoPapers at their local library in the general publications area (not controlled), and they were doing research ... guess I need to go home and read through them to see if there is anything in them stipulating photocopy rights. :^\

Gerry,
>. . . then again, she talks to her television,. . . <

Perhaps speaking to electronic objects is a universal Greek Grandmother thing. (Getting their Yia Yias out :-).
My Yiayia had a very large arch-shaped old wooden radio in the 1950s which often behaved badly. It lived prominently in her kitchen--as you know, the kitchen is the central focus of a Yiayia's house. There was an ethnic radio station which, for 2 hours a day, played Greek music and advertised local Greek merchants (usually restaurants). It didn't matter much to her if the radio was being problematic the rest of he day. It could hiss and buzz through "Inner Sanctum" or "Jack Benny" but if it made one disagreeable sound during "Grecian Melodies," my Grandmother would launch into a frenzied list of accusations and a string of Greek curse words which would embarrass my mother. It always ended with, "Ou na hkatheis" and a slap on the radio's side. The radio, knowing the power its mistresses voice, immediately behaved and played beautifully. This prompted her to say, "En daxy" and so went each night as I remember.

ChrisL

I tried "babelfish"<http://babelfish.altavista.com/> on the articles Paul and Adam suggested. It worked far beter than I expected. There a few strange things but most can be figured out in context. It is an amazing tool for translation and I recomend anyone try it.
Thanks Paul!

ChrisL