Trump Mediaeval Questions

sko's picture

I am looking for a more featured version of Trump Mediaeval, and the ones I see on myFonts that look like they might be right are the Linotype and Paratype sets.

Trump Mediaeval Std (Linotype): The opentype one looks like it has smallcaps and old-style numbers, but doesn't have any more ligatures than my old one (only fi and fl). Is this just the old Linotype outlines put into an opentype file, along with the smallcaps that was a separate file before opentype?

Trump Mediaeval Pro Cyrillic (Linotype): Has the smallcaps and more ligatures (the ffi one in particular), but the glyph dump seemed to indicate that there are no smallcaps or old-style figures in the file.

Kuenstler 480 (Paratype / Bitstream): The opentype one offered by Paratype seems to have the old-style numbers, small-caps and ligatures (including fj, which isn't in the Pro Cyrillic Linotype one).

The Paratype one seems like the best buy, but am I missing something about it, or the others? Does the preview not show some glyphs or are they missing from both Linotype versions?

Also, it is described as a Kuenstler. What does this mean? I have seen this tag on Weiss and Schneidler too.

dan_reynolds's picture

Also, it is described as a Kuenstler. What does this mean? I have seen this tag on Weiss and Schneidler too.

Bitstream developed a system to name typefaces systematically, based on their historic or visual traits, plus a numbering system for specific identification. They did this because the names of the typefaces that they were developing their own versions of were trademarked by other companies.

Kuenstler (Künstler) is the German word for artist. Künstlerschriften (or artist typefaces) is a German term for typefaces designed by artists – including commercial artists – rather than having been developed by in-house a foundry’s technical staff. Schneidler, Trump and Weiss were all Schriftkünstler, or what we might now call independent type designers, who sold or licensed designs-on-paper to type foundries.

Is this just the old Linotype outlines put into an opentype file, along with the smallcaps that was a separate file before opentype?

I don’t have the fonts myself, but it is very likely that this would be the case. I don’t think that there is a very of Trump Mediaeval on the market that is as featured as you would like.

Jean Paul Beumer's picture

[A bit off-topic perhaps, but nevertheless...]

Quite some years ago I was very in to gothic music. Album cover art was something that really drew me in. I bought the Earth Inferno album (vinyl!) by Fields of the Nephilim and on it was a typeface I had not seen before. I studied it and with the help of some letterpresses (pre-internet era) I came to the conclusion it was Trump International. I really loved that font.
Now I'm reading this thread it reminded me of it, but I can't seem to find any reference anywhere at all to Trump International. Did I dream it? Was I just a young foolish dressed-in-black boy?

Indra Kupferschmid's picture

Did you maybe dream of Zapf International?

sko's picture

Kuenstler (Künstler) is the German word for artist. Künstlerschriften (or artist typefaces) is a German term for typefaces designed by artists – including commercial artists – rather than having been developed by in-house a foundry’s technical staff. Schneidler, Trump and Weiss were all Schriftkünstler, or what we might now call independent type designers, who sold or licensed designs-on-paper to type foundries.

Ah, so it's a name or tag after the origin rather than a style.

Paratype's looks like the most feature-full, at the moment.

Jean Paul Beumer's picture

Ah, of course! ZAPF International... Thanks Indra! All those long nights listening to goth must have made me forget ;-)

(Sorry to have polluted your thread Sko. I'll stop it now.)

sko's picture

No problem, Jean.

For now, I can make do with my older version as it seems to hold up reasonably with ligatures off. Paratype's update of Kuenstler 480 looks to be the best though, so when I desperately need smallcaps and extra ligatures I think that's the one to buy.

kentlew's picture

That Paratype Kuenstler 480 looks like a very good and authentic interpretation, including the rare original swashes (although, they extended them to a few letters that did not have swash versions in the original).

The Paratype italic f-ligatures are not quite the same as the original designs, but seem to be quite sensitively adjusted and re-imagined — for the better. (The Linotype fonts contain ligatures closer to the originals in design.)

Gerry K's picture

Is this just the old Linotype outlines put into an opentype file, along with the smallcaps that was a separate file before opentype?

That is exactly right. When Adobe converted its library to OpenType about ten years ago, it combined the regular fonts with Expert Sets (from Adobe and Monotype) and Small Caps and Oldstyle Figure Sets (from Linotype). A few symbols were added to every converted font, but they did not add new ligatures.

sko's picture

That Paratype Kuenstler 480 looks like a very good and authentic interpretation, including the rare original swashes (although, they extended them to a few letters that did not have swash versions in the original).
Would you be able to tell me which ones are added and which are from the original?

kentlew's picture

Would you be able to tell me which ones are added and which are from the original?

Here’s the showing from a 1968 specimen produced by C.E. Weber Typefoundry Stuttgart and distributed in the States by Amsterdam Continental Types, Inc.:

So, some of the additions in the Paratype fonts are the swash H and K, for instance, and several of the terminal lowercase variations — c, d, h, u, maybe a few others.

And, of course, the accented and Cyrillic variations.

sko's picture

Thanks, looks like the Paratype one doesn't have the F, but still much more than any of the Linotype ones.

kentlew's picture

Sam — I think you might be mistakenly interpreting the original swash J as an F. (It took me a while to figure that one out originally, too.)

charles ellertson's picture

Kent,

I tried to find the swash in 480 -- doesn't show in the "character set" though perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place at

http://www.paratype.com/pstore/default.asp?fcode=PT_KNS&letter=K

And if I remember correctly, Richard Eckersley used Trump *open* caps for

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0803211856/designobserver-20/

My wife set this, and they had to use scans Richard prepared, as images. Do you know of anyone who has the open caps available as part of a font?

We have one client who still makes significant use of Trump. I've drawn up the double-f ligatures to match the Stempel foundry fonts, and reweighted the italic just a touch -- it was always a bit light with the roman. Anyway, if I could get more characters from ParaType -- or anywhere -- that would be useful for this client.

kentlew's picture

Do you know of anyone who has the open caps available as part of a font?

Charles — Do you mean the Trump Gravur? I believe that was considered a slightly separate series, though obviously closely related.

There appear to be two efforts at digitizing this available via MyFonts — Gravur AR and Gmuender Gravur. (The latter does not appear to give any credit to Trump.)

I can’t speak to the veracity of either of these.

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