Lisboa

ricardo's picture

Hello to every one, I would like to present Lisboa Typography because I want to get some feedback (critique). The work is not completed but I have been working to finnished all sets until the summer. This is a part of the work but I think this versions are sufficient to show the idea between (regular, italic, small caps, dingbats). The first objective in this project was devolopment a humanist sans serif typography for text with a good performance on small sizes for use on a graphic composition for the magazine of portuguese teacher's from Portugal (APP-2000). In the same time I started with the dingbats version which the principal influence was the signs and the symbolic forms of the city of Lisbon. The forms of the letters are neo-humanist and this variation have a hooked head terminal. The contrast of the letters are medium and the stress between thick and thin strokes have left-angled. The forms are more condensed to give a economy of space as text font. So I aspect some opinions.

Regards /Ricardo
head

cgonzalez's picture

ricardo

amazing work you got here, and i also liked very much your web site

the only thing a can said at first sight is that i think you shouldn't be so shy with the ascenders and descenders in your lc numbers

ah, and if you thought this font form small sizes you should be carefull in the ff ligature with the tail of the middle f, i think that the small space betwen them is going to disapear at 9 or 8 points, unless you intended that way

anyway, i really love it, and very nice way to post it, maybe i will follow your example

CG

hrant's picture

Well, it's no secret that I personally think we have enough humanist sans faces already - but at least this one is innovative in its lively lc.

In the lc, I would say that the "a" is too wide (in both the Roman and Italic), and the "k" needs more life (in the Roman). I like the fact that the UC is more conservative - I think making it as lively as the lc would ruin all-UC setting. Speaking of which, I think your smallcaps need to be wider. A few secondary things:
1) The ampersand's head is too big.
2) Your stress isn't actually angled, exactly. It's more like skewed or something... Pretty original (although I've seen it elsewhere before, even in the work of certain prominent designers - but don't ask me to remember exactly who), it would be pretty important to see a text block in higher resolution.
3) I actually think those "hybrid" numerals are very nice - even that wide zero.
4) Those dingbats seem very Portugese! Cool.

Spacing: I think overall it's good (just some specific problems, like the lc "r"), but the weight you're showing is too light for too much text - it will prevent the tight spacing necessary for good readability. Also: the Italic angles seem to waver.

hhp

eomine's picture

i think it's great, just some little things that could be improved:

- the section glyph looks too much a "S";
- the paragraph glyph could align in the baseline instead of descending it;
- italic "f" should have a subtler descending tail or no tail at all. imho the descenders are getting too close to each other in your f-ligatures.

otherwise, looks really nice.

and could you post a text sample with accents? we usually get very small diacritics with big-x-height fonts (signa for instance).
as accentuation is very importante in Portuguese, i'd like to see how you dealed with that...

rcapeto's picture

Nice, Ricardo! I like it a lot. I agree in general with
Hrant's comments, and I would like to see a darker
version too. Also, like Eduardo said, the accents
are very important and you should put up a sample
showing them. And the dingbats are excellent, deveras
lisboetas! Quero mais. ;)

Now, one thing that bugged me: why did you put f's
and f-ligatures in place of long-s's in these samples?!
I liked the idea of using an archaic text in the samples,
but does this 'magazine of Portuguese teachers' deal
regularly with medieval Portuguese? In this case you
should seriously think of designing a long-s and long-s
ligatures (the concept of a modern sans with archaic
characters is a bit perverse, but fun nonetheless). For
instance in the sample shown edited below all f's should
be long-esses (not sure about the Cardinal's name):

s longo

(and "senhoriose" should probably be "senhorio de"?)

Mas isso

ricardo's picture

Thank's for everybody for the comments. Sorry about my late feedback but let me organise the answers so:

1-"the only thing a can said at first sight is that i think you shouldn't be so shy with the ascenders and descenders in your lc numbers".
You have right about that the figures needs more difference (ascenders and descenders) and both versions (old style and lining figures).

2-The tail of the middle f (regular, italic) are functional on small sizes. I didn't make a printing test (Off-set) until now but on the laser prints they are function normally.

3- "a" is too wide (in both the Roman and Italic).
On my exemple I tryed to create on l/c "a" the same proportion of white space (counter) than "n". But in fact I you are right I compared the l/c "a" with others charactes (b,d,n,p) and the forms must be more condensed. I started to make the corrections and this characters look's better now, the bitmap looks great.

4- "I like the fact that the UC is more conservative".
Yes, is better the capitals stayed more conservative because the lowercase are a little bit more decorative for a normal sans serif. The hooked head terminal on capitals gives swash felling.

5- I verifyed the space of l/c "r" (it's better) but I think that I must open more the finial this letter.

6- " italic "f" should have a subtler descending tail or no tail at all. imho the descenders are getting too close to each other in your f-ligatures".
I had been thinking if I joining the two spurs of the "f", in fact this way fells strange. Inicially I gave the same countes space "ff" like the "n" for a reference but its better opean more the forms to brethe and compensate.

7- The mediaval portuguese text that I used in fact was taked from a part of a cover book printed by Francisco Correia "Rol dos livros que neste reyno se prohibem"-1564.
This kind of portuguese are to strange for me, the words have a spanish influnce I think, now in this days probably we write and speek like "Lista dos livros que neste reino s

hrant's picture

>> "the Italic angles seem to waver"

I mean that -although (in fact partly because) mathematically your slopes are probably all exactly the same- the apparent angles are different - and that creates too much movement [in this face]. This is because the structures of certain glyphs contribute to apparent rotation, especially in a sans (which doesn't have the stablizing effect of serifs).

Of course, that low-res rendering isn't really a very good reference, so...

hhp

rcapeto's picture

I would ask if is possible do exemplify better
this parts:
[..]
b-Rodolfo - "why did you put f's and f-ligatures in
place of long-s's in these samples?!".


I'll write privately, in Portuguese.

ricardo's picture


application/pdftexto
texto.pdf (348.4 k)

cgonzalez's picture

Ricardo

nice how your lc "c" and "s" works i thinks that they give a very special personality to your text.

now that i look at your pdf i think that your regular lc "a" has something dtrsnge in its belly i think that maybe is too wide in the bottom.

i also think that you should separate more the acentuation signs from the characters

the rest is great i really love it

CG

ps. let me know when you'll release it

hrant's picture

> I'd like to see it at 5-6 pt.

You can actually do that if you manipulate the print setup dialog in just the right way.

(Views on the PDF soon...)

hhp

eomine's picture

ol

hrant's picture

It seems that:
1) Your caps are too dark.
2) The spacing it loose (even for this light weight).
3) The Italic lc "v" and "x" (and "w"?) need to be curvy.
4) The commas/quotes need to be less smooth.
5) The "O"/"o" are tilting backwards (in the Roman but especially the Italic).
6) The lc "a" needs to be more delicate and rigid.
7) The ear of the lc "g" should curl.
8) This is a worthwhile effort!

-Hrant

rcapeto's picture

ps.: where did you get that picture, rodolfo?
it's very weird... :-)


Impressed by the awesome good taste of so many fleurons
and monograms, and by the sometimes somberly duotonish,
sometimes harmoniously colorful, but always fashionably
cropped portraits of so many serious hommes de lettres,
I had to dig for an old picture of myself that did justice
to my fair features. Why? You don't like it? ;)

On the PDF: I'll print before commenting, but it seems that
the r is somewhat loose at the right indeed.

ricardo's picture

Hello again I back to ask to Hrant something...

3) The Italic lc "v" and "x" (and "w"?) need to be curvy.

Hrant I had a old version which have a different form on this letters (b,d,v,w,y,x). I prepare this file to show you and others this characters. Some people advice me that this abordage are not correct but I think this principal are honest with the all set.
In fact I changed this letters because this actual forms are more simple and more simple to give space. The old version I had some difficults to combine some characters (space). I think that I stil have one of my firts draws and versions for this font, other more olders than this exemple, I will try to found to take the certainty if I real have this kind of version. I have a cemetery for this font because I have a lots glyph's archive that didn't funtion and they are taked from the recently version. I have been working on Lisboa and I had attention for all critiques, all most are valid to I continues this work to the right way. One more time thank's for all.

Sincerely Ricardo - Regards


application/pdfold characters
Old characters.pdf (247.1 k)

hrant's picture

I think those are better than the newer ones.

On the other hand, I don't agree that stroke formation -especially when taken that literally- is a good idea for type.

hhp

ricardo's picture

The last file have a problem sorry I will put again.


application/pdfOld Characters
Old Characters.pdf (247.2 k)

ricardo's picture

About the long-S and short-s. The corrections.lisboalisboasmallcaps

ricardo's picture

The first and second file have two different versions of the lowercase (vwxy). The other file have the correction and the update of the lowercase letter "g". lisboa2

ricardo's picture


application/pdfsampletext
Sample test.pdf (79.0 k)

eomine's picture

oi ricardo

i already liked your "g", and i like new "g" too.

about the long-s, i wonder if such feature is really
useful in a sans. (what do other people think?)

and in "vwxy", i think the curve terminations should
be slightly bigger. they are too "shy" :-)

hrant's picture

So why don't you like the curvy ones? I think they definitely work better.

The "g" is nicely improved! It looks great. The only thing
I'd recommend is making the join of the ear to the bowl thinner.

hhp

rcapeto's picture

about the long-s, i wonder if such feature is really
useful in a sans. (what do other people think?)


It isn't useful - either in a sans or a serif face -
unless one intends to set "historically" with it.

Of course, it seems more unnatural in a sans than in
a face like, say, Adobe Caslon. As Ricardo had decided
to use in these samples an archaic Portuguese text
that demanded the long-s ligatures, he added them
for the sake of coherence with his material.

He may well choose not to include them in the final
fonts for release, but their presence may be an exotic
marketing device.

ricardo's picture

Hello Eduardo I inclued the long-s because I would like to give the possibility to this font to be able to work with this kind of letters and combinations. Normally we don't see sans serif with this stuff but it was Rodolfo that explain and corrected me better about this part of the work. In fact on this days we didn't use this kind of letters on portuguese language so they didn't have application on the present but I leave this attention to opean a bridge until to the past. I would like too read more ideas and thoughts from more people about this.

I will try to intergrate better this news letters (vwyx) about the forms and space but I think they are fine in this way. If I change the forms will broke with all the coherence betten that kind of terminal and the rest of the letters. In fact the curves terminations are align by x-height overshoot to make a visual compensation.

>"I'd recommend is making the join of the ear to the bowl thinner".
I made this correction to l/c "g" to take a better idea. When I transform (rotate) the l/c "n" to take the leg I reduce the thickness of the stroke but I try to mantain all most of of the forms to improve the same movemont and tention like the others letters with this
hooked head serif. I inclued some different sizes to compare the hinting performance.

Thank's and Regards > Ricardo
g2

ricardo's picture

I've made a restyling on the commas and semicolons, this version is more cursive than the last one that was showed on my first sample. Tomorrow morning I will make a test on a laser print to verify how it function. Any comments?.Comma

rcapeto's picture

Ricardo, about the v,w,x,y; I agree with Hrant that the
previous ones were better. That little cursivity helps
them to fit better with the other characters.

abra

designalchemy's picture

I would buy it. Nice work.

anarchitecton's picture

Ricardo,

Congratulations for the wonderful font! When are thinking of releasing this one?

Um abra

ricardo's picture

Ol

eolson's picture

Overall this face is very well done. However, after viewing the three weights together I'm left wondering how they would best combine together. For instance, the Regular weight appears too close in stroke weight to that of the Bold. Would they work together? Or would you use the Light and Bold? Of course you could make a Black weight to solve all of this. This is an obvservation of a GIF so it's entirely possible I'm not getting the right feel. Again, very solid work.

hrant's picture

Eric, like you said a GIF is not a good reference, but it does seem like the Regular and Bold are a bit too close. Not too much, though: I hate the contemporary practice of making bolds very dark. Also, having 4 weights is much better than having 3 only.

hhp

plainclothes's picture

I appologise for not having the time to review the
comments here, or look at the font with great precision.
however, my first impression is... fanstastic work!

I particularly enjoy the Goudy-esque lc 'g' and the
dingbats (which kinda make me giddy). I would love to
own a copy of this beauty -- it's the solution to all the
things I dislike about Meta (except the figures: more
old style-like please). I would be especially pleased if
you expanded the family for flexibility's sake!

congratulations Ricardo!

ricardo's picture

Hello every one and thank's for all the critics. About the differences betten the three weigths. I have the same thought like Hrant about the dark bolds. But my bold version is very smooth if you compare with other font with the same characteristics but it's visible the contrast if you compared with the regular version. I will have attention with this question, problably I will make some adjustements to check the result. About the sujection to create another weight (Black) are not in my plans for now, problably this ideia will be keep to the future if this work will be released. I made some pictures to show better the differents betten the Light, Regular and Bold. I will need comments to clarify better this situation.

Plain you said -"except the figures: more old style-like please". You are talking about the fact the descenders strokes of the old style figures have a little distance until to the baseline? One more time thank's to all for the comments and the ideias.

Ricardo
typophile-lisboatextotexto2

hrant's picture

From your large sample on top, it looks like the bold might be bold enough after all. The toughest test would be on a low-res (600 dpi) laser printer, since that would make the various weights all darker = closer.

Also: don't forget to consider FontLab's extrapolation feature.

hhp

plainclothes's picture

Ricardo said...
You are talking about the fact the descenders strokes
of the old style figures have a little distance until to the
baseline?


actually, I'm not quite sure what you're asking here
either (the perils of international discourse). what I was
asking for were figures that flow more smoothly with
text (ie, with longer extenders and slightly shorter
bodies). however, judging by what I can see of them in
your samples, it appears that they flow just fine. I'd like
more thorough text samples with numerals to make a
final call, but it seems that I rushed to judgement.

eolson's picture

Ricardo -

Thanks for posting the Reg/Bold samples. They balance well together. I wouldn't worry about a Black for a long time. Great work.

ricardo's picture

Thank's for all the feedback and support. Talking about the figures they are not finnish eat but this samples will give a sufficient ideia of the characteristics of each part (regular, italic).
Regards for all / thank's
Ricardo
Figurasfiguras2

shawnmdo's picture

Let me know when and where this font becomes available.

hochi's picture

nice font Ricardo :-)

gulliver's picture

Ricardo,

Apologies for not commenting on this
thread sooner.

Congratulations on a great design! This is
excellent work. When and where might this
font be released?

David

ricardo's picture

Hello David it's a long time ago that we didn't talk , last time I remember that I send to you a e-mail and you never answer me probably that message had a error and you never receved. So about the released of this work I don't know yet the period or the date but I think will be finnish until the November or Dezember I hope. I had been some problems with my computer recently so I can't continue the corrections. David do you have any comments or critics to this work? Thank's for encouragement post and see you soon.

Ricardo

gulliver's picture

Ricardo,

Hi! I'm sorry that we didn't connect on your last
e-mail message. It's possible that the message
didn't transmit well, or I just may have missed it
in my mailbox. If so, I deeply apologize.

I look forward to seeing more progress on this
font as you can post it, and I also look forward
to its release.

The italics ar especially nice. I agree with Hrant
and Rudolpho that the cursive-style lower-case
letters work better, and keep the spirit of the
rest of the italic set. Other than that, I haven't
noticed any other spots that need any
specific polishing.

Again, congratulations on a fine piece of work!

Best wishes,

David

Stephen Coles's picture

Thanks for the PDF, Ricardo. Printed this sucker out.
The first thing I notice about the 9 pt. setting is how
open the type is. Really nice. I'd like to see it at 5-6 pt.

Syndicate content Syndicate content