Actually that Kehinde Shot isn't Idlewild. Got too excited when I saw one of my favourite fine artists and one of my favourite type designers together,
You like Idlewild (great typeface, well done) and you like Kehinde Wiley (thank you for introducing me to a great artist; once again, well done). What was the purpose of doing either? When you have posted serious questions in the past they have been left hanging with no follow up from you and then you post this for no clear reason. Is it guerilla publicity for H&F-J? If so, why have you regurgitated their publicity material? If you are merely expressing your admiration of the typeface, could you have elaborated? Was there a thought process? I am intrigued...
I'm not sure if it needs a lowercase or not. Let's ask H&FJ to submit a design proposal for a lowercase to us, and then we will have a better answer! ;-)
Seriously though, I'm on the fence as to whether it needs an LC, thought I'd ask the experts.
Since lc is 95% of text, sure it "needs" one. But it might be challenging enough that other things always needing attention will forestall it. Or maybe they're planning for an upgrade. :-) Software companies for one certainly have developed a engrained habit of "trickling out" features.
I'm trying to decide whether or not to consider this a display face. If it is, I believe it is the first pure display face H&FJ have released. It does seems to work pretty good at text size, however.... hmmmm....
It's interesting how many glyphs it has and how many languages it supports. 367 glyphs, but no lowercase....
Yes, Hrant, I can see them easily trickling out the lowercase, another reason to compare it to Microgramma/Eurostile.
I bought this when it was released, as it filled a hole in my arsenal -- a very wide typeface.
I see that H&FJ are trying to show its versatility in their specimens. I do however find it very masculine, and that it requires a fair bit of thought and testing to keep it from looking motocross. Of course, there's nothing wrong with work.
There's definitely room in the world for more typefaces with this kind of width.
Todd, I'm working on a wide sans of my own, with a few more quirks and Deco influences than Idlewild. In it's current incarnation, I don't think anyone will mistake it for a motocross face. :) Idlewild was released after I started, and I referred to it occasionally to make sure I wasn't simply duplicating H&FJ's beautiful work.
Actually, there is a lower case.
(Not the same thing as minuscules.)
In Idlewild, majuscule glyphs appear in both upper and lower case, same size relative to the em.
So, there is no caps-with-small-caps effect.
Right.
Hence unicase types, which are a mixture of majuscule and minuscule forms.
So, seeing as how the standard font encodings (for LCG) have upper and lower case, the problem for designers of all-cap or unicase typefaces is, what to do with the spare case?—do you leave it empty, fill it with a duplicate of your singular alphabet, or a copy at a smaller size (“optical scaling”), for a caps-with-small-caps/unicase-with-small-unicase effect?
In a practical sense, it’s most relevant to the shift function on keyboards, which is not a left-over from typewriter/type case days, but a carry-forward.
BTW, Unicode refers to Capital and Small letters, which is not much use typographically.
On further investigation, I’ve identified five categories of case relationship:
Majuscule/Minuscule
Identical
Large/Small
Stylistic Alternates
(Lower Case) Blank or with Common Placeholder Glyph
Although Small Caps is the most frequent example of Large/Small, it does not adequately describe this sort of arrangement (Parity, a unicase typeface):
Lower case is the complement to upper case.
It traditionally comprised the minuscule characters in bicameral systems, but now also accomodates other alternates to majuscule glyphs, in typefaces which do not have minuscules.
Lower case characters have separate code points in Unicode, enabling them to be linked by the shift key on keyboard devices, or by other casing operations.
Maybe that’s my being French, but Idlewild reminds me a little bit of Roger Excoffon’s Antique Olive Nord. Chester Jenkins’ Aero is quite close as well.
So if I put a bunch of triangles in the unicode "lowercase" slots, those triangles are accuratly considered lowercase? I mean basically it sounds like you're saying upper and lowercase don't have anything to do with majuscules and miniscules anymore, but are more of just a label for what is located in a certain range in unicode? And if uppercase is what you get when you press the shift key, is the at synmbol the uppercase for the number 2? Still very confused.
28 Oct 2012 — 5:17pm
Actually that Kehinde Shot isn't Idlewild. Got too excited when I saw one of my favourite fine artists and one of my favourite type designers together,
29 Oct 2012 — 1:36am
Ryan—
Thank you for sharing your typographic **** with us all…
29 Oct 2012 — 2:41am
You like Idlewild (great typeface, well done) and you like Kehinde Wiley (thank you for introducing me to a great artist; once again, well done). What was the purpose of doing either? When you have posted serious questions in the past they have been left hanging with no follow up from you and then you post this for no clear reason. Is it guerilla publicity for H&F-J? If so, why have you regurgitated their publicity material? If you are merely expressing your admiration of the typeface, could you have elaborated? Was there a thought process? I am intrigued...
29 Oct 2012 — 3:47am
Hey, mods: seriously? O R G A S M S is a dirty word?
29 Oct 2012 — 5:07am
It's crimesex. Reread 1984.
29 Oct 2012 — 5:11am
It’s ITC Blair, a 1997 remake which traces its roots back to the Inland Type Foundry circa 1900.
29 Oct 2012 — 9:30am
Karl, I don't think it's so terrible - but it would be better as a Typophile blog entry.
hhp
29 Oct 2012 — 9:35am
Agreed.
29 Oct 2012 — 4:15pm
Should there be a lower case?
Also, mods, anyway to delete the Kehinde pic?
29 Oct 2012 — 4:24pm
It's interesting comparing it to Eurostile/Microgramma, which also came out originally (microgramma) as uppercase only.
30 Oct 2012 — 4:11am
Would you see any purpose to having one? Looking at the range of examples it would seem fairly unnecessary to me.
30 Oct 2012 — 10:05am
I'm not sure if it needs a lowercase or not. Let's ask H&FJ to submit a design proposal for a lowercase to us, and then we will have a better answer! ;-)
Seriously though, I'm on the fence as to whether it needs an LC, thought I'd ask the experts.
30 Oct 2012 — 10:17am
Since lc is 95% of text, sure it "needs" one. But it might be challenging enough that other things always needing attention will forestall it. Or maybe they're planning for an upgrade. :-) Software companies for one certainly have developed a engrained habit of "trickling out" features.
hhp
30 Oct 2012 — 11:11am
I'm trying to decide whether or not to consider this a display face. If it is, I believe it is the first pure display face H&FJ have released. It does seems to work pretty good at text size, however.... hmmmm....
It's interesting how many glyphs it has and how many languages it supports. 367 glyphs, but no lowercase....
Yes, Hrant, I can see them easily trickling out the lowercase, another reason to compare it to Microgramma/Eurostile.
30 Oct 2012 — 12:20pm
Personally, I think Idlewild needs lc the way the Cunard Queens need jetliner wings.
30 Oct 2012 — 12:23pm
I bought this when it was released, as it filled a hole in my arsenal -- a very wide typeface.
I see that H&FJ are trying to show its versatility in their specimens. I do however find it very masculine, and that it requires a fair bit of thought and testing to keep it from looking motocross. Of course, there's nothing wrong with work.
There's definitely room in the world for more typefaces with this kind of width.
31 Oct 2012 — 8:42am
Todd, I'm working on a wide sans of my own, with a few more quirks and Deco influences than Idlewild. In it's current incarnation, I don't think anyone will mistake it for a motocross face. :) Idlewild was released after I started, and I referred to it occasionally to make sure I wasn't simply duplicating H&FJ's beautiful work.
http://typophile.com/node/95846
31 Oct 2012 — 10:18am
Benton Sans has had a Wide version added, which will be part of a forthcoming Retail upgrade (within the next few weeks, hopefully).
31 Oct 2012 — 10:38am
Who do you work for anyway, Kent?
31 Oct 2012 — 12:53pm
You might spell the name of the typeface correctly in your thread title, Ryan.
31 Oct 2012 — 1:45pm
I work for myself. I provide design and consultation for various clients. This includes some part-time work with Font Bureau.
31 Oct 2012 — 2:29pm
Actually, there is a lower case.
(Not the same thing as minuscules.)
In Idlewild, majuscule glyphs appear in both upper and lower case, same size relative to the em.
So, there is no caps-with-small-caps effect.
31 Oct 2012 — 3:27pm
Marc: Yes, I've been watching the development of your typeface. It's really coming along.
Kent: Nice! I assume the l/c g will get a little darker, eh? (Could be the image)
31 Oct 2012 — 3:48pm
Josh, yeah, can't edit it now though.
31 Oct 2012 — 6:36pm
You should be able to edit your original post.
1 Nov 2012 — 8:09am
I believe the ability to edit original posts has been gone for weeks now.
here's a thread you started, do you see a link to edit the original post? If so, might that be because you have mod privileges?
http://typophile.com/node/97575
1 Nov 2012 — 8:10am
So wait, lowercase and miniscules aren't the same thing?
1 Nov 2012 — 10:18am
Right.
Hence unicase types, which are a mixture of majuscule and minuscule forms.
So, seeing as how the standard font encodings (for LCG) have upper and lower case, the problem for designers of all-cap or unicase typefaces is, what to do with the spare case?—do you leave it empty, fill it with a duplicate of your singular alphabet, or a copy at a smaller size (“optical scaling”), for a caps-with-small-caps/unicase-with-small-unicase effect?
1 Nov 2012 — 10:39am
So what does "lower case" actually mean then? Is this just leftover from the printing days when you kept your miniscule sorts in the 'lower case'?
1 Nov 2012 — 10:54am
In a practical sense, it’s most relevant to the shift function on keyboards, which is not a left-over from typewriter/type case days, but a carry-forward.
BTW, Unicode refers to Capital and Small letters, which is not much use typographically.
1 Nov 2012 — 11:12am
Zeppelin has lowercase
1 Nov 2012 — 11:34am
Small caps, same size or minuscules?
1 Nov 2012 — 12:29pm
@Ryan – That's roughly it. "Lower case" and minuscules are largely synonyms nowadays in the mundane world.
1 Nov 2012 — 1:00pm
On further investigation, I’ve identified five categories of case relationship:
Although Small Caps is the most frequent example of Large/Small, it does not adequately describe this sort of arrangement (Parity, a unicase typeface):
1 Nov 2012 — 5:23pm
I still don't understand. So lowercase means what? Nothing?
1 Nov 2012 — 10:09pm
Lower case is the complement to upper case.
It traditionally comprised the minuscule characters in bicameral systems, but now also accomodates other alternates to majuscule glyphs, in typefaces which do not have minuscules.
Lower case characters have separate code points in Unicode, enabling them to be linked by the shift key on keyboard devices, or by other casing operations.
2 Nov 2012 — 7:02am
"So lowercase means what? Nothing?"
No. It means e.g. I AM NOT RAISING MY VOICE.
2 Nov 2012 — 7:31am
Maybe that’s my being French, but Idlewild reminds me a little bit of Roger Excoffon’s Antique Olive Nord. Chester Jenkins’ Aero is quite close as well.
2 Nov 2012 — 10:22am
David: I AM NOT RAISING MY VOICE.
However, with Idlewild YOU’RE ALWAYS SHOUTING.
2 Nov 2012 — 11:29am
So if I put a bunch of triangles in the unicode "lowercase" slots, those triangles are accuratly considered lowercase? I mean basically it sounds like you're saying upper and lowercase don't have anything to do with majuscules and miniscules anymore, but are more of just a label for what is located in a certain range in unicode? And if uppercase is what you get when you press the shift key, is the at synmbol the uppercase for the number 2? Still very confused.
2 Nov 2012 — 11:30am
Or talking grandiloquently.
Celeste, indeed curves are handled in a similar way on both faces. A very elegant solution.
Nick, Zeppelin has minuscule lowercarse.
2 Nov 2012 — 12:19pm
"Still very confused."
On a cold and grey typ-o-phile morning another little hungry boy is born... in the ghetto.
3 Nov 2012 — 4:38am
Nope, @Nick. Idlewild is a Marantz 170DC PA.